All right, everybody, welcome back to The Conspiracy Podcast. Part Deuce, let’s go. MK Ultra. So picking up where we left off, obviously we left things on, as we typically do on The Conspiracy Podcast, the lowest possible note, usually someone dying in a shitty way. So that’s where we left it. I wanted to get into another of their operations, and this one is my personal favorite. The name might even be my stripper stage name: Operation Midnight Climax.

I mean, that’s definitely your stage name, Midnight Climax. Who comes up with these names? I don’t know. I wish I was like the person who started Paperclip, the HR assistant, like what’s the next name. But this one actually makes a lot of sense once I get into it. Real quick, if you haven’t listened to episode one, go back, go back to part one. Because we’re just jumping back in. In episode one it was really the history, the formation, Project Artichoke, who created LSD, the whole LSD story, the guy jumping out the window. So go back, listen to part one, and then you can dive into part two.

So Operation Midnight Climax began in 1954. This is a year after Artichoke and MK Ultra were created in 53. So is this a parallel project? No, they’re all under the umbrella of MK Ultra. Spin-offs, but they’re all under the MK Ultra umbrella. There’s like different tactics. So this consisted of a web of CIA-run safe houses in San Francisco at 225 Chestnut Street. San Francisco. Were you part of it? No, I lived in lower Pacific Heights for a while.

So Pacific Heights is where the rich people were, because it’s a hill. I lived in lower, lower Pacific Heights. It was upper middle class, but you know how there’s all those hills. Living on top of the hill was the best because you look down on the peasants, and nobody wanted to hike up. So the bums were down at the bottom, the Tenderloin and stuff is down at the bottom, pooping on the streets. That’s your lesson in San Francisco. This was also in Mill Valley, California, as well as in New York City, with the safe houses.

So just like MK Ultra, this is a spin-off program under it. This was considered so secretive that only few people in the highest positions knew it existed and was conducting these experiments. So it’s very, very compartmentalized, less than the original 12. Pretty much this was established in order to study the effects of LSD on non-consenting individuals specifically. This is like drug rape, literally. It is drug rape, watch.

So prostitutes on the CIA payroll were instructed to lure clients, AKA Johns, back to the safe houses, where they were then plied with a wide range of substances including LSD and monitored behind one-way glass. So in essence, you pick up a hooker, you’re like, oh yeah, it’s about to go down. And they’re in the room next to you with one-way glass staring in, and the chick’s dosing you with LSD, and you’re like, why is your face all weird? And then they’re just watching, they’re like, good, good. Oh God.

So they dose them up with LSD. The prostitutes were on the payroll of the CIA. They’re actually prostitutes and the CIA’s employing them, and they would bring them back and they would dose them. They must not have been paid much, because otherwise why would you keep being a prostitute? Here’s the payroll, we won’t arrest you. It’s like 50 bucks extra. They’re not getting a 401k match, they’re getting an extra 50 bucks. I know, probably less honestly. At this time, the 50s, that’s crazy.

So the prostitutes were instructed in the use of postcoital questioning to investigate victims. They were pretty much schooled in this type of questioning to find out whether the victims could be convinced to voluntarily reveal secrets. The victims were sometimes fed subliminal messages in attempts to induce them to involuntary actions, including criminal activities such as robbery, assault, and assassination. So they’re literally just trying to make lonely dudes into assassins. They’re just trying to get a nut off, and it turns into a whole scandal, and they’re like, kill, kill, kill.

Going back to episode one, where we were talking about one of the scientists that was testing these biological weapons, that’s Olson. One of the things that they were doing is, you might be wondering, aren’t the processors also high off their ass? So what they would do is they would get these guys in there, they would release this gas or whatever that had the LSD in it while the processors go hide in the bathroom or something. Then they come back in after the subjects are all high. So that’s how you know the processors weren’t also high. Perfect test subjects. That’s crazy.

If that’s true, dude, it is true. It’s almost unbelievable, but it gets worse. It does sound unbelievable, doesn’t it? No, not really. You can’t put anything past this government. They dose their own guys. But when we say the government, these are CIA, they’re CIA agents, government officials, representatives of the government. It’s sanctioned by the CIA, which is a government institution. You realize that this MK Ultra was sanctioned by the director of the CIA. How was this rogue? He runs the CIA, the number one.

Maybe he didn’t know that it was like, hey, let’s get the hookers high and then put a plexiglass and then get the other guy high. Maybe it was vaguer, that’s all I’m saying. Eric is very naive, all peaches and rainbows and butterflies. Always trying to find the positive, like they’re good people, they didn’t know. They are not bad. So many of the CIA operatives involved in the experiments voluntarily indulged in the drugs and prostitutes for recreational purposes. Sure, that makes 100% sense. They’re like, well, since you’re here.

What I always find, and I was heartbroken when I found out later in life, is that in movies the CIA agents, the FBI agents, they’re all like Golden Boys, Tom Hanks, I’m a good person. But in real life they’re like, you know what, I’m tired, let’s go. That to me is real life, where they’re in the environment and they slip up, and he’s like, whoops, a little LSD in my mouth. Destiny, do you mind if I get a freebie? I got an extra Benjamin here, that’s just got your own name on it.

Information from the Wilmington News Journal on October 15th, 1978, reports from Freedom of Information Act requests that the spy agency purchased two pounds of yohimbine hydrochloride. So yohimbine behaves as an aphrodisiac in some mammals but not in humans. For humans it used to be prescribed as a treatment for erectile dysfunction. So is this like the stuff you see at 7-Eleven, it’s like a buck ninety-nine, get it, get your rock off, Arabian root, pump it up naturally, natural extracts only.

I’m going to start an ED company called MK Ultra. But I thought that was the funniest thing. On their own dime, the CIA is like, we need some Viagra, it’s for the experiments, it’s for the test subjects, not for us. Imagine if they could sell it on Amazon, they would kill it. Midnight Climax. That’s it, I’m stealing it, I’m taking it. So this was purchased by Robert Lashbrook, if you remember who he was, Sidney’s deputy and the guy taking a shit when Olson died, when he karate-chopped out the window.

The role of Dr. Lashbrook was to monitor and approve materials for Operation Midnight Climax, AKA hook his boys up. He’s the purchasing agent for MK Ultra. He’s like, oh, you guys need some, okay, fine. These people suck. No wonder Olson karate-chopped out the window, he knew what he was doing. Senate investigators were told the goals of these experiments were to study mind control and sexual behavior. More specifically, it was to learn about the secrets of brainwashing, to gain control over enemy spies and protect US agents.

I feel like they have to say that, they’re like, this is for America. I only had sex with those hookers for the good of American citizens. National Security. She paid for services rendered, she had to render services, National Security. Because what if the Soviets were doing the same thing, we had to be on the same level as them. We can’t let them damn commies beat us at their own game. I need to know if Sergey would release from a tickled ball. If Sergey would climax at midnight.

So other objectives included finding drugs that could incapacitate entire buildings via poison food, which could create, and I quote, confusion, anxiety, fear. So in essence they drop some gas into a building of high-profile people and everyone’s freaking out. These drugs could also have amnesia effects, which were intended for use on foreign spies following interrogations and on retiring CIA agents. So let’s say you’re Olson, you have all this high-level intel, they’re like, forget, you don’t know anything. Or they interrogate someone and send them back to their country, they’re like, I wasn’t interrogated.

It does seem like an interrogation tactic. I can see, okay, well, we’ve beat him up enough, let’s try new things, let’s drug him. But it’s also still criminal. No, it’s inhumane, that is actually the word. This is like Geneva Convention stuff, for real. So another aspect they tested was the effect of combining LSD and isolation. Terrible idea. This is what I told you about, the closet thing, where the subjects would be dosed and isolated for months at a time with minimal food and water. Inhumane.

Have you ever seen Zero Dark Thirty? That was about the bin Laden thing, but it was all about torture, the methodology of torture. Wasn’t that camp in Guantanamo, where laws don’t exist? They like Britney Spears blasting for hours. So messed up. The safe houses were dramatically scaled back in 1963, following a report by the CIA Inspector General John Earman, which strongly recommended closing the facilities. The San Francisco safe houses were closed in 1965, and the New York City safe house followed in 1966. So they eventually were like, you got to stop, hooker guy. Ten years of this, it’s enough.

So next thing I wanted to get into, obviously this covered unwilling participants, so the next thing is actually willing, people who said I’ll do it. This is about Ken Kesey, as well as some other individuals. So Ken Kesey, at the invitation of his neighbor and also Stanford psychology graduate student Vic Lovell, volunteered to take part in what turned out to be a CIA-financed study under the name of MK Ultra. Was that like an ad in the paper? They probably said it’s on like a telephone pole, rip a number off.

It’s like, you want to make eight dollars? Do you want to bang hookers on Midnight Ultra Climax? Yes, sign me up. Honey, this is a government thing and I’m making money for the family. So this all happened at Menlo Park Veterans Hospital, in California, by Stanford. Kesey actually worked at Menlo Park Veterans Hospital as a night aide. So the project studied the effects of psychedelic drugs, particularly LSD, psilocybin which is mushrooms, mescaline which is another huge one.

If you’ve ever seen Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, they’re doing mescaline all the time. It’s Johnny Depp, and it’s crazy, it’s wild, it’s like a drug trip the whole movie. Cocaine, AMT and DMT. So AMT stands for alpha-methyltryptamine and DMT stands for dimethyltryptamine. They’re both extraordinarily powerful, more than LSD in my opinion. I wonder why we haven’t heard of those. Technically DMT is present in like 98% of carbon-based life forms, including plants, it’s in grass and stuff like that. But supposedly DMT is released in extremely small quantities when you dream.

So Kesey wrote many detailed accounts of his experiences with these drugs, both during the study as well as in the years of private drug use that followed. So he was doing the drugs himself. Kesey’s role as a medical guinea pig, as well as his stint working at the hospital, inspired him to write One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. Wow, so he wrote that book. So he frequently entertained friends and many others with parties he called acid tests, involving music, black lights, fluorescent paints, strobe lights, LSD, and other psychedelic effects.

This is also a bunch of hippies back then, right, the 60s. So everybody’s like, oh yeah, I’m down with that. You’re just slipping and sliding everywhere, you got butts and dicks, haven’t worn clothes in six days. So these parties were described in some of Allen Ginsberg’s poems and served as a basis for Tom Wolfe’s The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. It was an early exemplar of the non-fiction novel. Other firsthand accounts of the acid test appear in Hell’s Angels: The Strange and Terrible Saga of the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang, that’s by Hunter S. Thompson, as well as the 1967 Hell’s Angels memoir Freewheelin Frank, Secretary of the Angels, by Frank Reynolds.

So it’s interesting that the Hell’s Angels kind of ties into that. They were probably all peeing too. There were other notable people who reportedly volunteered for CIA-backed experiments with LSD. Some of those are Robert Hunter, who is a Grateful Dead lyricist, makes sense. Also Ted Kaczynski, you know, the Unabomber. Also James Joseph Bulger, also known as Whitey Bulger, who was the notorious Boston mobster played by Johnny Depp in the movie Black Mass, pretty good movie. So I just wanted to give you guys a little insight into people who were like, I’m down, and then afterwards I’m going to keep doing it. The willing participants. They were loving the ride.

So now we’re going to get into experiments abroad. Abroad? Well, mostly just Canada, it doesn’t count, it’s America’s hat. So the CIA exported experiments to Canada when they recruited Scottish psychiatrist Donald Ewen Cameron. He was the creator of what was called psychic driving. It’s another weird thing. So the CIA was like, this is interesting, this guy’s on the same level as us, we should recruit this guy. He had been hoping to correct schizophrenia by erasing existing memories and reprogramming the psyche. So this guy’s like the poster child. He wasn’t doing it maliciously, he’s trying to help.

In psychology, psychiatric mental health, everything was at its formative stage, and you’re trying to go, how do I help this guy who has schizophrenia? But giving him LSD? No, before that, your initial purpose is to go, I think I need to wipe out his traumatic war memories. I kind of get the view of trying to figure out how. Fine, I get the view, I disagree with the action. I’m not saying it was the right move, I’m just saying the origin sounds like he was trying to be a good guy and then became a piece of shit. Yes, the classic Fall From Grace.

He would commute from Albany to Montreal every week to work at the Allan Memorial Institute of McGill University. He was paid 69 grand from 1957 to 1964. I got the adjusted for inflation, that’s 579k. Big dollars. This wasn’t about schizophrenia at all, it’s about a bank account. So this was to carry out MK Ultra experiments, and they called them the Montreal experiments. These research funds were sent to Cameron by a CIA front organization which they called The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology.

And as shown in internal CIA documents, Cameron did not know the money came from the CIA. He thought it was from an actual organization. He maybe wasn’t aware. They’re like, you don’t know who I work for, I’m going to give you this five hundred grand a year, but it doesn’t come, just shut up. It’s like, we really like your research, give them more LSD. Do you want your checks or not? More LSD, sir. It’s crazy what money will change. They’re like, this isn’t illegal, they’re paying me, it’s good cash.

I was talking to somebody the other day and they were like, you should put your feet on OnlyFans. We were talking about, what would it take for you to be okay with it, how much money. I personally hate feet. What would it take monetarily for you to be okay with it? Say it was a million dollars, dude, yeah. I’d put a picture of my butthole on there for a million dollars, what do you need, tell me what to do. But that was the conversation, at what point, what’s your number. For feet, I’d do it for a thousand bucks. It has to be real. A thousand bucks.

If any of our listeners are the foot folk, I apologize, but if anyone would actually pay physical money to look at someone’s feet. Oh, it’s all the time, it’s millions of dollars, it’s insanity, people pay all day long. But the argument was the moral question of at what monetary value do you go okay, because that’s what we’re talking about. This guy, half a million dollars. My thing is, at least it’s just feet. When it’s more than that, then I’m like, what, your face? Your body? Ten thousand, a hundred percent, are you kidding me.

Ten would be like full frontal. Ten, I’m like, okay, I can pay off a lot of debt, I’m thinking practically. That’s the argument, what number makes it so you could do more good than what you’re doing, which is maybe not good. But it’s a little different than, take LSD against your will. For that guy it was half a million. Well, technically it was 69k, in the 50s. So anyways, down a rabbit hole there, the OnlyFans rabbit hole. I guarantee we’re going to do some weird emails after this. They’re like, so what’s your Venmo, send it.

So in addition to LSD, Cameron also experimented with various paralytic drugs, which is even more terrifying. He would also experiment with electroconvulsive therapy at 30 to 40 times the normal power. This guy was a total piece of shit. That’s when they literally shoot electricity through your body, as in some weird way they’re like, this will make you feel better. So they tie you down, put a mouth guard in, put electrodes on your temples. It was like an old barbaric way of mental health treatment, just like when they give you a lobotomy. It’s kind of like bloodletting, get rid of the bad blood, but instead they’re like, we’re going to fry you.

Because they did experiments and go, okay, your brain does have electrical impulses, so if there is electricity there, if we just add more, extensively more, turn it up, Pump Up the Volume. The whole point is that they are trying to program these people so that they don’t remember. But my thing is, why is he using paralytics, let me paralyze you and then shock you with 30 to 40 times the normal level? So he doesn’t have to deal with people freaking out. I’m not justifying, I’m just saying that’s a lot. It’s barbaric. It’s like saying, trust me, I’m just going to cut off your leg, I think it’s going to make it feel better.

It’s weird, the evolution of treatment. Civil War it was like, just cut it off, bite on the spoon, pour some whiskey on it. And then before that was bloodletting, get rid of the dirty blood. Bloodletting in a weird way isn’t super wrong, because it’s like, take some blood out, you feel a little weak, compared to cut your leg off and electroshock you. But you also need your brain, you need your brain to live. George Washington pretty much died from bloodletting. George Washington also lived in a time where he had wood teeth, dentures, there was no dentistry, we didn’t brush our teeth.

His experiments consisted of putting subjects into drug-induced comas for weeks at a time, up to three months in one case, while playing tape loops of noise or simple repetitive statements. So this is torture. There was one that I heard when I was researching this guy, put him in this coma and they had this tape, your mother hates you, your mother hates you, whatever, for days. And they just wake you up and you’re like, fuck you. I know we make these jokes, but when you take the cases individually, it’s super messed up.

Because that messes you up when you think about it, like forever. You have such a deep connection with your mom, so they want to mess with that and see if they could, if we can sever that, we can sever anything. God, that’s so messed up. So this guy’s pretty much a torture artist. His experiments were often carried out on patients who entered the institute for common problems like anxiety disorders or postpartum depression, many of whom suffered permanent effects from his actions. They’d come in with something normal and they leave messed up. And did they know? No, they would go in and he’s like, oh, you’re going to get treated, I got you.

So his treatments resulted in victims’ urinary incontinence, amnesia, forgetting how to talk, there was one chick who literally had to relearn how to talk, forgetting their parents, and then thinking their interrogators were their parents. That’s how messed up these people got. During this era, Cameron became known worldwide as the first chairman of the World Psychiatric Association, as well as the president of both the American Psychiatric Association and the Canadian Psychiatric Association, and he was also a member of the Nuremberg medical tribunal in 1946 through 1947. So this guy is this well-respected guy, and he’s literally just ruining people’s lives.

Where were human rights back then? Apparently it didn’t exist. I mean, same as now, but I mean there is things like the Baker Act. So the Baker Act allows, let’s say, I could literally call the authorities and be like, Eric’s acting crazy, threat to himself, you should take him, and they can literally take you against your will. Because anyone says it? No, look it up, bro. There has to be some evidence. It’s a third party, if a teacher says, if your child is a threat to themselves, they’re exhibiting these symptoms, or they mention something like a school shooting, they can take your kid from your house away from you. It’s called the Baker Act, it’s super messed up.

They’re trying to get it repealed because it’s messed up. They have to take you into the hospital, a mandatory holding period. The fact that it’s against your will and against the will of your family members, which is super messed up. So in 1973, this was amid the government, widespread panic about Watergate, all this stuff going down. This is when people really were like, whoa, the government sucks, they’re really doing this kind of stuff. They started questioning Vietnam, they started questioning the government, Watergate, spying, drugging. At this time there was a lot of change that came about, but obviously it sucks that it happened.

The CIA director Richard Helms ordered all the MK Ultra files to be destroyed in 1973. Destroy them all. Pursuant to this order, almost all of them were, except for like a cache of 20,000 documents. So it makes it impossible to do a full investigation of MK Ultra. You can’t find out who’s responsible, you can’t name names. So there was a cache of 20,000 documents that survived because they were incorrectly stored as financial records in a financial records building. So they were in a separate financial records building. This was discovered following a Freedom of Information Act request in 1977.

They were fully investigated during Senate hearings in 77. But back in 74, the New York Times alleged that the CIA conducted illegal domestic activities including experiments on US citizens during the 60s. That report prompted more investigations by Congress, in the form of what’s called the Church Committee, as well as a commission known as the Rockefeller Commission. Anytime I hear that name I think dirty conspiracy. Rockefeller, world domination. Why have we not done an episode on that? They were totally above board. Actually we had a couple fans who reached out on that one.

These two committees and commissions looked into the illegal domestic activities of the CIA, the FBI, as well as other intelligence-related agencies. In the summer of 75, the Congressional Church Committee, which was headed by Frank Church, that’s why it’s called the Church Committee, had reports, as well as the Rockefeller Commission report, that revealed to the public for the first time that the CIA and the Department of Defense had conducted experiments on both unwitting as well as cognizant human subjects, as part of their extensive program to find out how to influence and control human behavior through the use of psychoactive drugs such as LSD, mescaline, and other chemical, biological, and psychological means.

So that was the first time that the public actually found out that this happened. In 75, so 12 years after it started. And they also revealed that at least one subject, Frank Olson, which we covered, had died after being administered LSD. I mean, granted it was 10 days later under circumstances, but you know, killed. Much of what the Church Committee and the Rockefeller Commission learned about MK Ultra was contained in a report prepared by the Inspector General’s office in 1963, that was pretty much from the documents that had survived the purge.

However, that initial report from the Inspector General contained little detail at all, it was very nebulous. Sidney Gottlieb, who had retired from the CIA two years previously, the bad guy, this is the guy who ran the show, was interviewed by the committee but claimed to have very little recollection of the activity. Can’t recall, can’t recall, sure he did. The Congressional committee investigated the CIA research and concluded that prior consent was obviously not obtained for any of these subjects.

The committee noted that the experiments sponsored by the researchers call into question the decision by the agencies not to fix guidelines for the experiments. You can’t just willy-nilly be like, let’s start giving LSD and see what happens. Especially if they don’t know. Although it kind of seems that you don’t know what it is either, meaning we know what LSD is now, but at the time they had no clue what it was. It could have been totally poison. Menthols are great for you, the doctor’s smoking it. Like, I have a Marlboro when I do surgery, it’s good for my stress, in my line of work.

So following the recommendations of the Church Committee, President Gerald Ford in 76 issued the first executive order on intelligence activities, which among other things prohibited, and I quote, experimentation with drugs on human subjects except with the informed consent in writing and witnessed by a disinterested party of each such human subject, and in accordance with the guidelines issued by the national commission. So Presidents Carter and Reagan both expanded upon this directive to apply to any human experimentation at all. So some good came out of it, they’re like, you can’t mess with people. My boy Jimmy, Jimmy Carter, I’d vote for him again.

In 77 the Senate reported on MK Ultra, and during the hearing held by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence to further look into MK Ultra, Admiral Stansfield Turner, who was then the director of the CIA, revealed that the CIA had found a set of records consisting of about 20,000 pages, which we mentioned, that survived the 1973 destruction orders. It was redacted, but there was some stuff. So in 77, on the Senate floor, Senator Ted Kennedy, right after Chappaquiddick, I am a good guy, I promise, I want to be president.

His uncle Ted, on the Senate floor in 77, said the deputy director of the CIA revealed that over 30 universities and institutions were involved in an extensive testing and experimentation program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens at all social levels, high and low. That must have been wide. Several of these tests involved the administration of LSD to unwitting subjects in social situations. At least one death, the result of an alleged defenestration of Frank Olson, was attributed to Olson being subjected without his knowledge to such experimentation nine days before his death. The CIA itself subsequently acknowledged that these tests had little scientific rationale.

So even they were like, we don’t even know what we were doing. That means thousands. Thirty universities, you’re going to tell me it was 150 people? Get the fuck out. Even if it was 20 people each, that’s 600 people, that’s not even including the hookers and the Johns. And it was like 10 years. So it’s going to be tens of thousands, and they bought 100 million doses. This episode’s upsetting, it sucks. I told you it’s messed up. Obviously stuff happened in Canada too.

So in Canada the issue took longer to surface. It became widely known in 84 when a CBC News show covered it. It was learned that not only had the CIA funded Cameron’s efforts, Cameron was the doctor who was running that messed-up stuff, but also that the Canadian government was fully aware of this and had later provided another $500,000 in funding to continue the experiments. How do you sell this? Somebody must have sold it in a PowerPoint. We need half a million more. On slide two you’ll see me shocking the shit out of Jane, and she’s not happy at all, but we’re almost there. Look, she forgot who she was, we’re onto something here.

So this coming to light pretty much largely derailed efforts by the victims to sue the CIA and its US counterparts, because the Canadian government settled out of court for 100k to each of the 127 victims. 127, that’s just in Canada, 100k each. So now there’s a bunch of people in the US trying to sue the CIA for what happened. But the Canadian people can’t sue because the government was pretty much giving them money, forcing a settlement, and now they can’t sue the CIA.

Cameron died on September 8th, 1967, and he suffered a heart attack while he and his son were mountain climbing. Jesus. So none of his personal records of his involvement with MK Ultra survived because his family destroyed them after his death. The family knew he was guilty, they’re like, burn it, burn all of his stuff, burn his office down. That sucks. So that’s pretty much the MK Ultra story.

And weirdly enough, it’s such a weird situation, especially in terms of being a conspiracy theory, because the fact is we know it happened. So all this stuff is based on declassified documents coming out later, the ones that weren’t destroyed. So we know this by chance, really. It came out because of the Freedom of Information Act, stuff got released, and then Senate and Congress was like, what the hell is going on. And then they’re like, burn the evidence, and then that’s how it came out. So we know for a fact that MK Ultra existed.

So that’s not the conspiracy, it was a real program. Which is interesting, it did happen, for 10 years it happened. Because usually conspiracies exist and you’re like, you don’t know for sure, it’s a conspiracy. But at this point we’re kind of like, no, it happened. So that’s why this is weird for a conspiracy, because the conspiracy isn’t, oh, was MK Ultra real, because we know it was real. What we know based on this is that MK Ultra was real, and they used drugs to try to brainwash, manipulate, and/or program people, military people, unsuspecting people. To create a weapon, a robot, weaponize a human that you can send out to kill, and they had to forget.

So I guess the question would be whether or not it’s a quote-unquote conspiracy. Was it a rogue situation, or was it approved? We already know it wasn’t rogue. But you could have parts of an organization, it was approved to do some original experiment. The original approval is like, okay, we’re going to test it out, go test out torture and how to not torture, learn how to better your torture technique. And then they went off into this, oh, electroshock. So then the government’s like, no, no, no, that’s not what we meant, cancelled.

I mean, just to put it to you this way, Frank Olson was a part of MK Ultra for seven months and he’s like, I can’t do this anymore, this is too messed up, literally dies, karate chops out. And it went on for 10 years. He was there for seven months. And he could build biological weapons and was totally fine, and then this is only after he was given LSD. Who knows if he would have stuck around for 10 years without that LSD. Good point. He only started tripping out and then they were like, well, look at this guy, keep your eye on him.

So that’s the first question, was it a rogue department. No, it was the director of the CIA who was like, do it. Okay, I’m going to agree with you guys. Next question, does it persist? That is actually what I’m super interested in, because did it end in 73? So that is the main conspiracy: is MK Ultra still active just under a different name? And it makes sense, because there were multiple iterations. Before even Project Artichoke, I believe there was Project Bluebird. Project Bluebird was the forerunner. So the beginning of MK Ultra was Project Bluebird, which became Project Artichoke, which became MK Ultra.

So my thing is, they keep doing the same thing over such a long period of time, why don’t they just change to like Project TikTok, get out of the spotlight, change the name. If we can make them do these stupid dances, can we make them do other stuff? To answer your question, it’s still persisting, still going on today. I mean, I don’t have any evidence, but I don’t know if you guys have seen, there’s been a lot of coverage on these weird, what people are calling, people glitching.

So it’s like people will literally stand there and they’ll just freeze, and it happens to a lot of people. I wrote down some of the celebrities it’s happened to. Draymond Green, during a press conference, he’s literally with one of his teammates right there and the teammate’s talking, and he’s like, just for 10 seconds, checks out, gone, and he’s back. Also Eminem, Katy Perry, Hillary Clinton multiple times, a shitload of news hosts, during an interview they’re just kind of checked out. Literally other people are talking right next to them and they’re gone. It is weird to see.

Which one was weird though, Mitch McConnell. The Mitch McConnell thing was super sketchy. Although, have you been in front of something that was in front of a million people? Mitch McConnell has been a senator for like 40 years. I’m just saying, maybe we don’t know the pressure. But these are all people that have been doing this for years. I do think it’s weird, it’s too long. If it was a millisecond, even two seconds, you’d have to give it to me. This is like 10 seconds. You see the Two Chainz one? Two Chainz is on ESPN with the boys on the little basketball court, and he literally for 10 seconds, and they come up like, dude, what the hell is going on, are you okay?

There’s one where Cardi B is literally getting interviewed and she checks out. And there’s two or three of them where, when they do something in threes, they come back to it. She’s like, okay, okay, okay, and then she snaps back. Or one person claps three times right next to him as soon as they see it happen, and the person snaps back. So that’s why people are trying to tie it to maybe some sort of signaling. So your guys’s theory is that these celebrities are being MK Ultra’d, whatever it is. I don’t know what it is, there just seems to be a lot more people who are either fainting or having a seizure.

I don’t know if it’s MK Ultra, but it seems like it would be a more relevant thing to present. My personal belief is that the program is still going on, but in a less invasive way. Think smarter. I think they’re like, hey, we don’t need drugs or anything like that, we can just social engineer people into being what we want. Maybe they learned a little bit more. We can use social media, we can use advertising, it’s a slow game instead of being the fast game. Instead of, hey, I need to change you right now, they’re like, cool, I can change you over 10 years.

That’s not MK Ultra, that’s a different thing. What’s the purpose of MK Ultra? The purpose of MK Ultra is mind control. Mind control for what? Just for control. No, they’re not worried about the Soviets anymore, the Soviet Union doesn’t exist. Yes they are, they’re very worried. I get what he’s saying, but I think that, even though I agree, I just don’t think that it’s kind of like what we’re talking about as far as MK Ultra, which is creating this guy that can get programmed to go out and do exactly what you want, which mainly is go out and kill someone and forget about it, or not get caught and have it come back to us.

I’ll give you a really good example of why I think this is actually happening. Let’s take BLM, let’s take any of the riots. How do you convince people to just do crimes, and it’s not even bringing good to the cause that you’re supporting? You’re destroying black-owned businesses, you’re destroying black people’s homes, and this is supposed to be about that. If you can get people to do that, that’s social engineering. I think it changed. I think they were trying to do that then, but they realized we can’t really control people with drugs, we have to do it a different way. And if you can make it their choice. I actually agree with that, it’s not a bad theory.

And it goes both ways. I’m not saying it’s only one. You can do that with anything. I’m on your side with your theory, I just think that is maybe a different subject in regards to this MK Ultra project that we’re talking about. If it’s happening, I think it’s mostly just happening more with prisoners, or prisoners of war, still along the torture lines, not with people that don’t know that they’re participating, like civilians. Everything you guys are saying does lead back to that there is a nefarious entity wanting to do that. 100%.

I think it goes back to a round table. I don’t think it’s one. If you want to take it back, this type of thing has been happening far longer than you can imagine. We’ll get into this once we get into like these obvious family-type conversations. Do you realize that our modern medicine was actually manipulated by the Rockefeller family? Wait, save that for an episode, we have an episode coming up on it. I understand, but this just leads to my point in terms of mind control, because the real real on mind control is perception control.

If you can control what someone perceives as real, then you’re controlling their mind, because you can’t force them into believing something, but if they believe it for themselves to be real, then it’s real and you’ve won, and you’re doing it without drugs. So JD Rockefeller, he’s massive in oil, the big thing at the time. So they were using natural medicine like naturopathy, that was the big thing. They turned homeopathic medicine into quackery. He paid off all the main doctors and had them start writing all these research papers on how petroleum-based medicines were the new craze, and literally 15 years later naturopathic medicine doesn’t exist and people think those people are crazy now.

It’s like a mom’s handbook, and people think they’re weird. You realize that 20 years ago, the whole world operated off this. He was, see, if you’re able to manipulate the perceptions, you take what people trust. You trust a doctor. My doctor tells me some stuff, I’m like, okay, I believe you. That’s my point, I feel like they realized that mind control needs to be done differently, and it’s done in a way that you convince them of the reality you want, and when they believe it themselves, that is controlling their mind because they believe it. You didn’t make them, you’re not giving them some code word, they don’t have to get dosed again.

So that’s my belief. Where do you stand, Eric? I mean, I think this is deep-rooted, I think it’s a thing. I’m not saying that MK Ultra, the program with the 12 guys, is still here, they’re all gone, but I do believe, I’m actually on board, I think it’s prevalent in our society today. So you think it’s more of like what Sean’s saying, on a social engineering, broad social mind control level, slow game. But I still think drugs are still part of it. I think there’s a MK Ultra society, but it’s a different society. So we’re all saying that something’s going down, but you guys still believe there’s a drug component involved, and I’m more like this is broad-scale.

So we’re kind of on the same page but just different spectrums, different forks in the road. We agree but we disagree but we kind of agree. The last thing I think we can all agree on is that Frank Olson was murdered by the CIA. Let’s be honest, the fact that homie was taking a dump after a dude just threw himself out of a window. They murdered him by getting him psychotic from the drug. Eric, let’s say me and you go on a business trip, we’re in the same hotel, and then suddenly I throw myself out of a 10-story window, and you go peek over, and you’re like, have a sip of coffee, oh shit, and you just go sit down and you don’t call the cops.

Actually, what you do do is you call the doctor. Well, Sean’s dead. And Dr. H is like, well, that sucks. And then you go take a shit, I got nothing else to do. The fact that no cops are called and he just takes a dump, get the fuck out. So anyways, we’d love to get your guys’ thoughts. What do you guys think? We’ll probably put up another poll, see what you think on the little polls. And that’s what we got. MK Ultra, guys. Hope you like it, it’s insane, it’s crazy, it’s inhumane. Honestly, it’s so messed up. I mean, doing this research I was really not happy for weeks, but I hope you were happy on your drive home from work, guys. Catch you on the next one.