H.H. Holmes: The Death Castle – EP 174
H.H. Holmes: The Death Castle
This is the Halloween special, and like last year’s Dracula episode it sits in the show’s true-crime vein rather than pure conspiracy. The subject is Herman Webster Mudgett, better known as H.H. Holmes, the man called the Beast of Chicago, the Devil in the White City and the builder of the Murder Castle. The guys open with the famous origin story: a boy in 1860s New Hampshire dragged into a doctor’s office and pressed against a hanging skeleton, and the fear turning into curiosity. Then comes the catch they return to all night. That story comes from Holmes himself, one of the greatest liars America ever produced, so the listener’s job is to decide how much of the legend he wrote on his own behalf.
The early years set the pattern. Born in 1861, married at 17 to Clara Lovering, a real medical degree from the University of Michigan with mediocre grades, and a sideline in the cadaver trade that taught him the move he would run for the rest of his life: a dead body, a fake accident, an insurance check. He abandoned his wife, drifted through cities where children went missing around him, and stepped off a train in post-fire Chicago as Dr. Henry Howard Holmes. In Englewood he took over a drugstore at 63rd and Wallace (the guys note the widow he supposedly murdered to get it actually lived until 1933), married a second wife under a fake name while still married to the first, and in 1887 started building the castle across the street, on credit, without paying the architects, the steel company or the workers.
Then people start disappearing. Julia Conner and her six-year-old daughter Pearl vanish on Christmas Eve 1891. Emeline Cigrand, his 23-year-old secretary, stops writing home in December 1892 and her trunk is shipped back empty. Minnie Williams signs her Texas land over to an alias of Holmes, and her 18-year-old sister Nannie is never heard from again after July 1893. That same summer 27 million people came to the World’s Fair, and the legend says Holmes ran the castle as a hotel where young women checked in and never checked out. The guys lay out the other side too: the third floor was never finished, and the Chicago researcher Adam Selzer found no evidence that a single fair tourist died in the building.
The crime that actually hanged him was the Pitezel scheme. Holmes planned to insure his partner Benjamin Pitezel for $10,000 and fake his death with a cadaver, then decided a real body was easier, and killed him in a rented house on Callowhill Street in Philadelphia on September 4, 1894. He identified the body over the open grave, had Pitezel’s teenage daughter Alice confirm it by the teeth, collected $9,700 and talked the widow into handing over three of her children. He moved Alice, Nellie and Howard from city to city, burned the letters they wrote home, and killed all three. The train robber he never paid his $500 referral fee talked, the Pinkertons arrested him in Boston, and Detective Frank Geyer went door to door with the children’s photographs until he found the girls in a Toronto cellar and the boy in an Indiana chimney.
Convicted of one murder in a trial where he briefly represented himself, Holmes sold a 27-murder confession to a newspaper, then denied it all on the gallows and was hanged on May 7, 1896. His body went into a pine box filled with cement, at his own request. From there the guys walk the theories: the Jack the Ripper claim made by his descendant Jeff Mudgett, the rumor that he bribed his way off the scaffold (a 2017 exhumation identified him by his teeth), the unsolved question of who burned the castle while he sat in a Philadelphia cell, the 200-victim figure that traces back to one line in a 1940 book, and the so-called Holmes curse.
Where they land: zero validity on the Ripper theory, since Holmes was chaos and the Ripper had a pattern. They believe he killed people in the castle, that an insurance job is the likeliest explanation for the fire, and that he was a genuine serial killer and a pathological liar whose own confession cannot be trusted either way. The four confirmed victims are Ben Pitezel and his three children; some historians accept about nine. Everything past that is the legend Holmes helped write.
- Herman Webster Mudgett was born May 16, 1861, in New Hampshire, married Clara Lovering on July 4, 1878, at 17, and earned a real medical degree at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, where the hosts say he worked in the anatomy lab and later admitted to insuring made-up people and passing off cadavers as accident victims.
- In Chicago he took over a drugstore at 63rd and Wallace in Englewood and in 1887 began building the three-story castle across the street on credit; the hosts say the architects, the steel company and the drug suppliers all sued him in 1888. The story that he murdered the previous owner’s widow is a myth: Dr. Elizabeth Holton sold him the store and lived until 1933.
- Julia Conner and her six-year-old daughter Pearl vanished on Christmas Eve 1891; secretary Emeline Cigrand’s letters home stopped in December 1892 and her trunk came back empty; Minnie Williams signed her Texas land over to an alias of Holmes in April 1893, and her sister Nannie, 18, was last heard from on July 5, 1893. The hosts note that the hotel-of-death legend around the 1893 World’s Fair is disputed: the third floor was never finished, and researcher Adam Selzer found no evidence a single fair tourist died there.
- On September 4, 1894, Holmes killed Benjamin Pitezel in a rented house on Callowhill Street in Philadelphia as part of a $10,000 insurance scheme, collecting $9,700 after identifying the body himself and having Pitezel’s daughter Alice confirm it by the teeth. He then took three of the Pitezel children and killed Howard in Indiana and Alice and Nellie in Toronto in October 1894.
- Pinkerton agents arrested Holmes in Boston on November 17, 1894, after train robber Marion Hedgepeth, owed a $500 referral fee, informed on him. Detective Frank Geyer found Alice and Nellie buried in a cellar on St. Vincent Street in Toronto on July 15, 1895, and Howard’s remains in the chimney of a cottage in Irvington, Indiana, about a month later.
- Holmes was tried for one murder starting October 28, 1895, convicted on November 2, sold a confession to 27 murders to a newspaper in April 1896 (some of the people he named were still alive), and was hanged in Philadelphia on May 7, 1896. The castle burned after midnight on August 19, 1895, while he was in a Philadelphia cell, and nobody was ever charged for the fire; a 2017 exhumation by his descendants identified his remains by his teeth.
Read the full transcript
Welcome to the Halloween special. Hey guys, welcome back to the Conspiracy Podcast. Hello friends, welcome to Halloween. Oo, Hallow’s Eve. Okay, real quick. We carved pumpkins. You did, dude. Two [bleep] seconds later, they were all moldy. Oh, I threw them away. Nowhere to get them, dude. From a super insanely expensive pumpkin patch. I spent $60 on pumpkins. They’re all in the trash. You just got to go to Trader Joe’s or Walmart. Good old [bleep] Walmart. Those Walmart pumpkins last a century. True. Yeah, they’re all fake anyway. The good old GMO. I need that GMO pumpkin in my life, dude. They [bleep] They were literally instantly I You know how long it took me to do that?
It was infuriating. Well, I hope wherever you’re listening, it’s uh uh the season has turned. I hope it’s fall, you know. Crisp. Yeah. Uh unfortunately in Florida, it is still summer. I mean, it’s not that bad right now. It’s like It’s not good. No, but it’s not that bad. [laughter] There’s a defining line between terrible, not that bad. Yeah. [snorts] So, we decided to do a Halloween special and and um it’s not necessarily uh conspira conspiracy. Yeah. But it’s there are some conspiracies that we’re going to dive into. It’s kind of like in our like our like little true crime vein. We did a couple of those.
So, have you heard of HH Holmes? I have not. You have not heard? heard, but I don’t know this. I’m I don’t know the full story yet. Okay. Well, this is considered the first serial killer of America. Oh [bleep] Okay. Yeah. About to be sold. Yeah. [laughter] I know. Well, we did do Jack the Ripper. Yeah. And we sold the [bleep] out of that. Yeah, that’s right. So, New Hampshire, the 1860s, a farm town called Gil Mountain up in the hills where the winters come early and the nights are long and dark in a way that people can’t really picture today because there’s no street lights.
Just a few Yeah. Just a few lamps and a few windows and miles of black woods in every direction. In that town, there’s a doctor’s office. And in the corner of that doctor’s office, hanging on a stand, there’s a human skeleton. Oh, cool. Great. This is awesome. One day, a group of boys grab a smaller kid off the road and drag him inside. Some rando. Come here, boy. He’s kicking. He’s screaming. They haul him across the room and shove him face to face with that thing. And then the story goes that they take his cold, bony hands and press them against his cheeks. He’s terrified.
And then sometime in the next few seconds, he isn’t anymore. The fear left and something else comes in. He’s curious. He wants to know what’s inside a person. How is the body put together and what can be done with it? That little boy’s name was Herman Webster Mudget. What a [laughter] name. No wonder he was getting bullied. Yeah. And the world would know him later as HH Holmes. So his actual name was Mudget. Yeah, I understand that why he went by the moniker. Yeah, because Mudget might be the world’s worst name. [laughter] So he became known as the beast of Chicago, the devil in the white city, and the man who built the murder castle.
Now, here’s the catch, and you’re going to hear it a lot tonight. That skeleton story comes from Holmes himself. So this is a con man. He’s considered one of the greatest liars that America has ever produced. So this story, a lot of it comes from him. So by the end of this, I want you guys to kind of decide if this is a self-proclaimed Oh, like he’s like trying to like Yeah. beef like he’s like the he’s the greatest because he has a book. We got a book at launch. [laughter] Exactly. Yes. Exactly. actually from from prison. That’s true. Right. So, last Halloween we did Dracula and the question was how much of that monster was a real man and how much of it was made up later.
Yeah. Like the lore and like the It was a great episode. I like that episode. I actually did. Yeah. So, that was last Halloween. Yeah. Great. Because I do not remember what we did. I don’t remember the episode we did six weeks ago. [laughter] So, a little bit of interesting timing. Bram Stoker published Dracula in 1897, one year after this man was hanged. Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. So, this is about the murder castle, the trap doors, over 200 victims supposedly. Jesus. Was it even Some theories even say it was Jack the Ripper. And we’re going to go into the controversy later. You said this is in Philly though.
I know. So there are records that HH Holmes traveled to Oh, that he was ripper. There are there are some records that show HH Holmes traveling to the same time period. Oh my god. And like there was the the theory that obviously that Jack Threer was a doctor because he was like doing like these weird [bleep] almost experiments. Yeah. Now, it’s a bit loose. Super loose. Yeah. But and we already solved Jack 3%. It’s like I know, right? It’s already solved. True. So, Herman was born May 16th, 1861. Wait, Herman? I thought you I thought it was Herman Mudget. Mudget. Okay. Sorry. Mudget. I was thinking the Mudget.
Gotcha. Gotcha. He was devout Methodist family, old New England stock. He was a smart kid. On July 4th, 1878, at 17, he married a local girl named Clara Levering. They had a son, Robert, a couple years later. Sick. Then he went off to become a doctor. A year at the University of Vermont and then the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Oh, that’s all it takes is little back in the hizzy. It was like a year. Now it’s like 55 years and you’re a doctor. So he had mediocre grades. Sick. But a real he got a real medical degree. Good enough for them at the time.
And for a con man, that’s the skeleton key because people trusted a doctor then. Oh, and that and now. So he was like Carl He was like uh what is his name? Carl Henry. No, no. Carl Henry is the FBI agent. He was a It was [bleep] name. Oh my god. Oh gosh. Oh, it’s going to piss me off. I don’t get it. It’s gonna piss Oh, it’s it’s Leo’s character. [sighs and gasps] No, no, no. Abagnail. Abagnail. Yes. Carl. Was it? What is it? Carl. No, that’s Carl Henry ready. No. No. It was uh Frank. Frank Abnail. Thank you. Junior. Thank Junior. You’re right.
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Two mice. Yes. A bucket of cream. [laughter] The worst. [laughter] Continue with the story. So, people trusted a doctor. People let a doctor into their homes. gave them money. They trusted everything about a doctor. Oh, for sure. It was like a police officer. You’re like, “Of course.” In Ann Arbor, he also learned about the business of the dead. Medical schools back then were always short on bodies for anatomy classes. And there was this strange little underground trade of cadaavvers. Graverrobing. Yeah. A little black market cadaavver trade. Corpses changing hands at night, no questions asked. And Holmes worked in the anatomy lab.
And years later, he admitted that while he was in school, he took out a life insurance on madeup people. So he would get his hands on cadaavvers, dress them up as accident victims, and then collect the insurance money. Man, there was like very loosey goosey like accounting at the [laughter] life insurance company. Fraud was so easy back then. Oh my god, I’d be so rich. So easy. So rich. If I was a bad person, I would be Oh, I’d be the infinitely wealthy genius. Oh, I’d be I’d be starting the first MLM back in the back in the [bleep] 1800s. All you got to do is recruit two other and then they buy the shakes and then you pay me for this.
So remember that a dead body, a fake accident, an insurance check. 10 years later, he would run that exact playbook. Only this time, he didn’t even bother finding a corpse. He just made up dead bodies. Yeah. He’s just like, and this is important to go back when we learn later, like he said how many people he killed. But we’re not. So maybe he’s just like Yeah, exactly. Yeah. theoretically killed them. Yeah. So Clara didn’t last. People who lived with them said he was violent with her. And before he even graduated, she took their son and went home to New Hampshire. They never technically divorced. And over the next couple of years, wherever Herman went, strange things happened around him.
A little boy in upstate New York who was seen with him was never seen again. A child in Philadelphia who died after taking medicine from the drugstore where he worked, but nothing was ever proven. No, they I mean they but each time by the time anybody started asking questions, Herman already took the train to the next city. This guy sound this guy’s so aloof. He’s almost like he reminds me of uh of what’s his name from JFK. Oh my god. Oh um Oswald. Oh yeah, Lee Harvey Osw like 400 jobs. Like we’d work at a place for like six days and then get like another job.
Like what? So in 1871 there was the great fire of Chicago and it basically burned the entire city down to the ground. Yeah. Sweet. But then it started to rebuild itself in stockyards that make the whole southside stink of blood. Coal smoke so thick the sky went brown. Thousands of young people pouring in from little towns and nobody knows anybody. So, it’s a bunch of strangers. It’s the perfect place to disappear and the perfect place to become somebody brand new. So, Herman Mudget steps off the train and then begins introducing himself as Dr. Henry Howard Holmes. M I mean that’s like the most the Triple H [laughter] Henry Howard.
That’s true. Sus. He takes a job at a drugstore on 63rd in Wallace in a neighborhood called Englewood and soon he owns the place. You might have heard he got it by murdering the owner’s widow and Miss Holton who supposedly vanished without a trace. That’s a myth though. Dr. Elizabeth Holton was a young woman. She sold Holmes the store and she lived until 1933. So almost 404 40 years longer than he did. So Okay. Yeah. So in January of 1883 up in Minneapolis, Holmes gets married again to a woman by the name of Merta Belnap and he’s getting married under a fake name. Yeah. Technically some he’s able to procure documents that Right.
And technically he’s still married to Clara but that doesn’t matter to him. [laughter] Yeah. He gives a [bleep] semantics. I’m a doctor. Yeah, do what the [bleep] I want. I am a doctor, literally. Yeah. He sets Mr. up in a nice house in the suburbs. They have a little girl named Lucy and Mr. believed in him until the day that he died. Meanwhile, across the street from the drugstore, there’s an empty lot and Holmes decides to start building. This is the castle. It goes up in 1887. Builds a legit castle. Two stories at first, then a third on top of it. Where’s he getting this fetti from?
Holy [bleep] Shops on the street, apartment upstairs. So, if you can imagine, he lived on the top floor of it and then the shops underneath. A big dark corner building with bay windows and and little turrets. And the neighbors start calling it the castle. Inside, it doesn’t really make much sense, though. Hallways that turn and go nowhere. Rooms that have no windows. It’s almost like the You ever heard of the Winchester Mystery House? No, it’s in San Jose. Yeah, it’s where like a woman built never endingly to nothing. So you know that you build stairs to a ceiling. This is like some weird This is some like [bleep] weird like clown house [bleep] Clown.
Yes, that’s a good Yeah, it’s a good description. Uh doors that open into brick walls. So you open the door and like why would you do like what is why would you do that though? So unnecessary. Unlimited money. I know. Like how was 18 [laughter] way to anything. My 18th city that I’m living in the Sim City. [laughter] Hidden spaces behind a wall, a walk-in vault, an elevator shaft, a shoot running down to the basement. And here’s what’s true about how it got built. Holmes did not pay for anything. Did all like credit. He bought materials on credit. [laughter] Yeah, I was just kidding. But I guess he never paid the workers.
[laughter] God, I wish Why Why wasn’t I born in the 1800s? Do anything, dude. Literally build me a mansion. I promise you I’ll pay you later. I’ll pay you when it’s done. [laughter] In 1888, the architects sued him. [snorts] The steel company also sued him. The drug suppliers sued him. They just [laughter] everybody Good luck suing somebody that doesn’t even exist. Literally. Now, some people say that these hidden rooms were a reason for them is that they were hiding furniture from the repo men, but seems a little excessive for hiding from your credit. That’s also like the repo man is like, “When we repossess the house cuz like the house is not paid for.” He’s like, “Oh, they going to find these [bleep] chairs, [bleep] [laughter] The sweet couch is mine.” But here’s why the castle became infamous was that people started disappearing around 1890.
Holmes picked up a partner. His name was Benjamin Pitzell. And he was a carpenter with a wife named Carrie, a house full of kids, and a little bit of a drinking problem as as one has as one has in 1800 [laughter] as one would have as a carpenter in 1800. Ben then becomes his right hand. Whatever Holmes needed, Ben did it. And in April of 1891, an old man named John De Brule, who’ lent Holmes money, collapsed and died right there in the drugstore on the bottom floor. A witness later claimed Holmes had poured a black liquid down his throat just before, but for some reason, nobody called it murder at the time, and the old man died.
He’s like, I’m trying to save him. Trust me. He needs a bullet to the head immediately. [laughter] Now, all the stories so far that we’ve told have been a bit of a circumstantial scenario, you know. Mhm. But here’s where it gets a little darker. Ned Connor ran the jewelry counter in Holmes drugstore. His wife Julia also worked there. And they had a little girl named Pearl. Julia and Holmes had an affair. This guy’s all over the place. Holmes is out of control. This [laughter] guy is [bleep] out of chaos. And also there’s a there’s a [bleep] jewelry store and [laughter] I stay thinking about that too in the drug store.
What’s going on? So Ned finds out about the affair. Pissed. He doesn’t do anything other than move out. What a [bleep] loser. So he’s just like, I can’t can’t even confront him. I’m out. Yeah, he probably knew that this guy was sketch, but he left Julia and Pearl to stay behind in the castle. This guy’s a dead beat. He probably had a drinking problem, too. Christmas Eve 1891. Julia Connor and her six-year-old vanish. God damn it. HH Holmes. His story kept changing about what happened to them. He said she went to visit a sick sister. She left town to get away from her ex. Years later, he admitted that she died while he was performing an abortion on her.
Oh my god. Then for whatever reason, he said he poisoned the little girl. What the [bleep] Years later in the basement, police found part of the child’s skeleton. Oh my god. Damn. This guy’s the worst. This is like This is the kind of guy that you you’d want like the Piquey Blinders to like [bleep] [laughter] find him. Yeah. just just beat the [bleep] out of him until he died. In 1892, a 23-year-old named Emmaine comes to work as his secretary. Bright, cheerful, she writes letters home to her family all the time. And then in December, those letters stop. Yeah. Hey, Mommy. I’m I I still haven’t gotten paid.
I been working for 3 months and there’s still no paycheck. Her parents are told via letter that she ran off to marry a man named Robert Phelps. Nobody ever found a Robert Phelps. To this day, no Robert Phelps has existed. [laughter] Her trunk was shipped to her family empty. That’s so sus. Weird. What the f? Like why? Like what is the like what’s going on? [laughter] What’s happening? So confused happening. No. And all these stories lead, you know what I mean? Are are Yeah. That’s why the leg Oh, he’s like, “Oh, yeah. I’m gonna I’m gonna send this I’m gonna send the trunk back. Hell yeah.
They’ll never know what hit him.” Then in early 1893, Minnie Williams, an actress in her 20s who had inherited property in Texas, she becomes HH Holmes stenographer. Then, for whatever reason, she starts calling herself his wife. [laughter] Dude, this guy is this guy like Brad Pitt? Like what the [bleep] is going on? Why does he need a synographer? He’s got a way about Dude, this guy’s got the juice. Why does he need a synographer? He just like [laughter] He runs like a a [bleep] medicine counter. Write down what I say, [bleep] [laughter] You’re my wife. [laughter] Not April. You’re not my wife. Write Write it down.
Write it [laughter] and then it’ll be true. the girlfriend. Strangely, that April, there’s documents that show her signing over all of her Texas land to a man named Alexander Bond. It was later determined that Alexander Bond was an alias of HH Holmes. I see how he broke he broke the Dude, he’s like, this guy [laughter] I mean, I’m actually as [bleep] up as he is, I’m impressed. Yeah, like this. Like this. This is like oceans like one. [laughter] You ate an entire wheel of cheese. Like I’m impressed. I’m not mad. Yeah. That summer, Minnie’s little sister, who is named Nanny, which Manny and Nanny, she came to visit.
She’s 18. On July 5th, 1893, Nanny writes to her aunt that she’s going to Europe with brother Harry. And she writes, and I quote, “Brother Harry says, ‘You need to never trouble anymore about me, financially or otherwise.” Got to land in Texas now. [bleep] set up. Nobody ever heard from Nanny again. Oh my god. Wow. How are the authorities not like being like something’s a foot? Isn’t that crazy? There’s, you know, you talk about like the ineptitude. This is the ineptitude of like these authorities. Okay. So that same summer the entire world came to Chicago and that was the 1893 World’s Fair. Oh yeah. It’s a very famous Super cool.
It’s a very famous all the inventions and [bleep] It was so cool. Yeah, that’s right. The CES of back then but like better. But like better. No, no, it’s a good point. They were like, look at this [bleep] Electricity. Are you Can you believe this? Honestly, light bulb. They’re like, I can’t believe what I’m saying. Yeah. Yeah. Or like a fridge. They’re like, wait, it keeps things cold without ice. They’re like, yes. Almost 700 acres of gleaming white palaces on the lakefront, lit up at night with more electric light than anyone has seen ever before in the history of mankind. Yeah. Uh, it introduced the first ferris wheel.
Terrifying. I would not want to be on that. The first. No. Psyche. I barely even want to go on the I don’t like the real ones, dude. I went on the London Eye. It was It was terrifying. Me and my wife were holding each other, not look like with our eyes closed. It was [snorts] so scary. That’s huge, though. It’s m It’s terrifying. Yeah. So, 27 million people visited Chicago that Yeah. And this is 1893. Yeah. That’s a lot. That’s a shitload of people. It’s like the Super Bowl. It’s like or even bigger. It’s big. It’s like the Olympics. It’s like the Olympics. Yeah. I mean, that is like more than like the population of some countries.
No, it’s a lot of people. So, and this is where the legend continues and even gets bigger. Holmes turns the castle into a hotel for the fairgoers. Endless streams of young women check in and never check out. [sighs] Rooms that lock from the outside. gas jets that he controlled from his bedroom. How did he build this like [bleep] like Wayne Manor of like [bleep] death traps? Do you remember with his handyman? Yeah. That he never paid. Yeah. [laughter] The the drunk carpenter that was like bought him some booze. Do you remember when we were talking about they found shoots? Yeah. That go to the basement.
So he would just kill them and send it down in the chute into the basement in the basement was a vat of acid just just that he just had off hand that just a vat. At this point we don’t even know if it was dozens of victims or hundreds of victims. I mean it seemed that this guy was like off the rails. Yeah. Here’s here’s what the record says. That third floor was never finished. It never really operated as a hotel. Historians who’ve gone through the paperwork, especially a Chicago researcher named Adam Selzer, said he found no evidence that a single fair tourist died in the building.
Yeah, cuz acid kind of deletes evidence. It’s wild. Yeah. So, people who don’t subscribe to this say he wasn’t a monster in some castle funhouse, but he was a businessman. He was the shadyiest, most criminal businessman in the history of mankind. How can you have so many circumstantial situations? It’s impossible. It’s impossible. No. 15 wives. [bleep] [laughter] like, dude, shit’s like out of control. Like, what the [bleep] So, by the end of 1893, his business is falling apart. Wild. Weird. How could that happen? Not selling enough Advil. Not paying anyone. Like, [bleep] [laughter] A fire breaks out on the top floor of the castle. Holmes tries to collect the insurance.
Yeah, I was going to say insurance fraud instantly, but fire officials say it was set on purpose. We found literally gallons of gasoline [laughter] legit. So, they declined his insurance claim. This probably the first time he’s ever like failed. He’s like furious. So, January of 1894, Holmes departs. So, he just leaps down. This is [laughter] like [bleep] city number 19. Exactly. I’m not going to get the I’m out. Peace. So he moves to Denver. Yeah. Holmes marries a woman by Georgina. Another wife. Y. Wow. Under the name Henry Howard. He’s on this HH kick. Yeah. That’s wife number three. Also, how was he forging these documents?
I mean, it’s pretty easy at that time, right? Oh, you’re like just write it on a little note card and you’re like, “This is who I am.” They’re like, “Yeah, it checks out. None of the three wives know about each other. He’s still married to all of them. He’s literally still married to all of them. Yeah. Then Fort Worth, Texas. He pulls a horse scam. Wait, he moved Wait, I thought he was in Denver. I know, but then he moved over to Texas. Oh my god, this is crazy. I can’t even keep [laughter] up with No, you can’t. I can’t. I dude, how what was the cost to to travel across country?
I mean, late 1800s. I mean, that’s pretty much wagon train. No, no, but he was also not paying anybody. Was he just doing this all on credit? Not a lot. Yeah. Like, give me a ride to Dallas. I’m trying to hit you back when we get there. I would say I would say automobiles are not No, they’re not. Yeah. Maybe they were invented, but not Yeah. You wouldn’t travel. You wouldn’t travel. Yeah. It would still be horse and Yeah. You’re getting like 20 20 miles like top top top line of which that brings up the point he pulls a horse scam. Yeah. So that’s that’s what we’re talking about.
[laughter] Yeah. Uh he pulled some sort of scam and then he had a warrant issued for him for stealing horses. And back in the day stealing horses like that was like a shootable offense. Yeah. Grave offense. You can you can put everybody in acid but don’t steal a horse. Can you steal a horse? Like the the Federalis are [bleep] on your ass. So then he moves to St. Louis. Jesus Christ. [laughter] It’s not like he’s moving. It’s not like he’s in the Northeast. He’s like, “Oh, he’s going from New Hampshire to Connecticut.” He’s going to literally he’s going like thousands of miles every place. He’s a busy buddy.
Yeah. I’m He’s been to more states than I have in like my whole life in like a year period. Yeah. So July 1894, he gets arrested for the first time in his life. small-time fraud. He’s only locked up for a short while, but in the jail, he meets the man who’s going to eventually be his downfall, Marian Hedgepath. And he’s a famous train robber. And Holmes, who can’t seem to keep his mouth shut, tells Hedgepath about a plan. He’s going to ensure a man for $10,000, fake his death with a cadaavver, and split the money. All he needs is a lawyer to play along with his scheme.
His little scheme. Yeah. Hedgepath gives him a name or a referral and Holmes says, “I’ll give you 500 bucks for that referral.” Oh, he’s like, “What about the 10 What about the 10 bands?” Now, keep that in mind because Holmes never pays him. Of course he doesn’t. Oh, yeah. He gave him a [bleep] IOU. Yeah. So that’s for the later later in the story because you know of course he doesn’t pay of course of course he doesn’t pay like the guy’s like moral of the story besides the murder. This guy’s literally like the he’s the ultimate criminal. He he can’t even like he he can’t do one thing correct.
Yeah. Okay. So the plan goes like this. Ben Pitell goes to Philadelphia which is Do you remember Ben? He was the that he was the carp the carpenter partner who was like drunk and Yeah. He goes to Philadelphia under the name BF Perry. There’s a $10,000 policy on him. Perry. Oh, so that’s he’s going to fake his own homie. And notice how he’s like his name is Ben Pitzell and there was BF Perry. BP Ben Pit. Very convenient. So Perry quote unquote dies in a lab accident. Then a cadaavver shows up. The insurance pays and everybody splits the money. Well, he’s like, “I get 10,000, you get a bottle of whiskey, and then you get nothing.” Yeah.
[snorts] But Holmes decides a fake body is too much trouble when you’ve got a real one. So, on September 4th, kills Ben kills his homie. So, September 4th, 1894, a rented house on Callowell Street in Philadelphia, he kills Benjamin. [bleep] Just He’s like, “Fuck this guy.” exactly how he argued about it in the plan. So he burned them. He was having a little experiment. Chloroform was poured onto it and the room is staged to look like an explosion. You said a little like home lab. Mhm. The coroner’s jury calls it an accident and Ben goes into a grave. Now the insurance company needs the body identified.
So, a few weeks later, they dig up BF Perry, and Holmes is there playing the helpful doctor, the grieving friend. He takes a surgeon’s knife out of his own pocket. He pulls on rubber gloves, and over the open grave, he cuts into the body of the man that he murdered, pointing out the marks of like recognition. So, like a wart on the neck, a scar on the leg. So, he pulls out a knife, he’s like, “See the inside of his body? I know exactly. This is him. This is BF, 100%. [clears throat] So then they bring in Alice, and Alice is Ben’s oldest daughter. She’s a teenager.
They cover the body with a sheet, all except a mouth, and they have her look at her father’s teeth. She says, “It’s him.” She’s crying, and Holmes is standing there consoling her. [snorts] The the insurance company pays out $9,700. They even gave Holmes a perdem to pay for his train fair home. Dude, this guy this guy like homie literally this guy’s like the emperor. He’s he’s like the emperor in [bleep] he’s literally the Darth Cidius. Like [laughter] this guy is the darkness. He’s the He’s like the ultimate evil. He’s the friend you don’t want. Literally. [laughter] Eric’s like just come here, buddy. Like trust me.
I got like a great idea and then next thing I know, Elizabeth Holmes, you see that man? Oh, with the crazy eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Trust me. Yeah. [laughter] Why would I say that to Yeah. Why would I Why would I do that? Why would I What are you talking about? Yeah, I know. [clears throat] I’m excited to see that movie. Yeah. Or that documentary. Yeah. Why would I do? Okay, so Carrie Pit Pitzell knows about the insurance scam, but she thinks her husband is still alive. Oh, she thinks it’s like a little double time. Yeah. Holmes tells her Ben’s lying low. Maybe in London, and the family will be together soon.
How does he even keep track of all the lies? There’s so many. In the meantime, Holmes says, “Let me take a few of the kids with me.” Yeah, you should marry me. So, she hands over three of her children. These Okay, dude. Jeez. I can’t even What? Wait. Is he just hands over three kids? What the [bleep] Is he like I don’t know. I mean, is he like does he have the the You know what I mean? The suave the No, that’s what I’m saying. Is he g is he pit? like, “Is he this the most beautiful man he’s ever lived?” And they’re like, “Of course, take the kids.
[bleep] it.” For weeks, Holmes moves those three kids from city to city. Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Detroit, Toronto, cold boarding houses, strange old hotel rooms, autumn turning into winter, and at the same time, he’s moving their mother and her other children through the same cities under different names into different lodgings. But why? And meanwhile, he’s got his new wife, Georgina, in a third hotel with no idea that anything is happening at the same time. Wow. This is like he’s got 200 plates in the air. In Detroit, the mother and her children are a few blocks away, but they never even know it. Wait, wait, wait. Who was who was the second wife that you were like?
She was like, she never doubted him until the day he died. I was like, how? I mean, is she is she like [bleep] blind, deaf, and dumb? Like, what is going on? [sighs and gasps] I don’t know. Along the way, the kids write letters home to their mother. Alice writes about how cold it is, how bored she is, how much she misses home. Holmes takes the letters, but he never mails them. Burns them. Never mails them. In early October, in a rented college in Indiana, Holmes kills Howard. He burns the little the little boy’s body in a stove. Jesus Christ. [snorts] In late October, in a rented house on Saint Vincent Street in Toronto, he kills Alice and Nelly.
Oh my god. Oh my god. This this [bleep] [bleep] got so He later confesses to locking the girls in a large trunk and running gas into it. Then he buries them in the cellar. Oh, then these are the bodies that they found in the cellar. Okay. Oh my god. I know. We joke and then all of a sudden it’s Yeah. Now it’s like so real. And I’m like, “Oh shit.” Like when it was like the drunk dad, I’m like, “Yeah, [bleep] it.” But now it’s the kids. I’m like, “Oh, this is terrible.” Okay, so now going back to Marian Hedgepath, you remember the train robber?
Yeah. He never got his 500 bucks. No, of course. So he decides to talk. He tells the authorities a man has swindled the Fidelity Insurance Company out of $10,000 and the insurance company calls on a police agency called the Pinkertons. You know what this reminds me of? You remember um a phenomenal movie Warogs? Yeah. Oh yeah. Where it’s like they all they had to do is pay like the Russian dude like it was like 10k and they were making millions and he just didn’t pay him. He just wouldn’t [bleep] pay him. And on November 17th, 1894, Pinkerton agents arrest HH Holmes in Boston. They hold him on that old horse theft warrant from Texas.
Classic. At first, it’s just a fraud case, but nobody can find Ben’s three kids. Holmes says they’re safe in London. He even gives them an address, but that address turns out to be not even to not exist. Yeah. Yeah. They’re at 123 ABC Street. I mean, obviously. So, in June of 1895, Philadelphia sends a detective to find them. Frank Guyire, a big quiet man with a big, huge walrus mustache. He’d recently lost his own wife and daughter, and now he’s looking out for someone else’s children. Oh, yeah. He was on the war path. [bleep] yeah. He goes city to city with their photographs in his coat pocket.
He wrote that he must have tied and untied that bundle a thousand times. hotel desks, boarding houses, rental agents. In Toronto, he goes house to house. And in July 15th, 1895, that’s on St. Vincent Street. That’s the seller we started the episode on. The lamp, the soft dirt in the corner, the smell coming up out of the ground. It was Alice and Nelly. A month later in Irvington, Indiana, an old real estate man recognizes Hol’s photo and in the chimney of a little cottage, they find what was left of Howard. Oh my god. Now, the whole country then turns its eyes back to Chicago in that dark castle on 63rd Street.
In July of 1895, police tear the castle apart. And they do find things. They find real things. They find a trail of blood near the old elevator shaft. A child’s bloodstained clothing. A burned watch chain in the buttons that seem to have belonged to Minnie Williams. Trunks with Minnie’s initials in the janitor’s rooms. Human hair found in the chimneys. Jesus Christ. Part of a child’s skeleton in the basement. Now, disturbing, yes, but technically circumstantial. I mean, this remains of bodies. Yeah. It was not enough evidence to convict him of a single murder. Are you [bleep] kidding me, dude? How? Are you [bleep] kidding me? How How is that possible, [snorts] dude?
1800s was on some [bleep] Like, they This is crazy. Then the stories begin to start. A man named Chappelle tells reporters he used to wire together skeletons for homes. He would strip the bodies the doctor brought in, sold off to medical schools. The papers loved it because it was a horrible, crazy story. But his story collapsed within a few weeks. The college he named hadn’t bought any skeletons. His own [clears throat] family said he was a drunk who made [bleep] up. No skeleton was ever traced to HHS. It’s also like it’s so weird they were using real skeletons like just before they realized like like plaster of Paris.
You just like make you just make fake skeletons. Like why do you need a real skeleton? So in August of 1895, the full legend of HH Holmes begins because the New York paper runs a story on the castle and the Chicago Tribune reprints it with diagrams. There were trap doors, secret chambers, a crematorium, and that’s when the famous murder castle floor plan you’ve seen in documentaries. Now, granted, it was from tabloids, but what happened after midnight on August 19th was the castle caught fire. Oh, wow. What [bleep] convenient. Two men were seen slipping in the back door that evening and running out half an hour later.
There were explosions. Half an empty can of gasoline was found under the back steps. The fire gutted the top floors and Holmes was locked in a cell in Philadelphia the entire time. Well, he clearly had like compatriots who were not the smartest of individuals. So, HH Holmes trial began October 28th, 1895 in Philly. He was charged with one murder, Ben Pitzell. Not the children, not the women, just Ben. Yeah. On day one, Holmes fired his lawyers and started representing himself. Uh, this is Why is this such a classic? This is like a This is literally like a I feel like I’m watching a a show on Netflix.
Movies are made from this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he’s like So, he started representing himself, he started cross-examining the witnesses. He’s so used to like [bleep] just like bamboozling everybody. Like, he’s like, “Fuck it.” So, he lasts 48 hours and then he asked for his lawyers back because he’s [laughter] like, “I have no idea what I’m doing.” Yeah. The doctors testify that the chloroform in Ben’s body was put there after he was already dead. On November 2nd, the jury eats dinner, takes one vote, and comes back guilty. Please tell me he was like So, he was [bleep] shot. He was sentenced to death. Thank God. Yeah.
Finally, there’s like some like peace. Yeah. But Holmes does what he does. [bleep] he married one of the jurors. In April 1896, he sold his confession to the newspaper for thousands of dollars. He said 27 murders. You might have heard the famous line that he said, and I quote, “I was born with the devil inside of me.” But he writes that in prison he’s changing. Oh, sure. You’re changing. I’m changing. Shut the [bleep] up. Hh. You [bleep] Why you still talking about my hh? Say your name. Mudget. [bleep] Mud. Mudget. What’s crazy about the story is that the confession itself falls apart because some of his victims that he confessed to are alive.
This guy can’t help himself. A woman in Omaha tells the press she has never been murdered by HH Holmes because she’s still alive giving the [laughter] interview. [snorts] I’ve never been murdered by [laughter] I’m alive. I’m right here. What the Oh my god. Are you kidding me? So May 7th, 1896, uh a prison in Philadelphia, a cold gray stone fortress with towers and battlements. Thousands of people crowd the streets outside. Inside almost a hundred witnesses, and one of them is Frank Guy, the the detective who dug up the little girls. That morning, Hol’s lawyer tells reporters someone offered $5,000 for his body. Holmes says he’ll make sure nobody gets it.
Not by buying it and not by stealing it. Remember, he knew exactly what happens to bodies that nobody protects. Yeah. He steals them and sells them to Yeah. to colleges. He climbs the scaffold between two priests and he starts chanting in Latin. And then he gives a speech. [laughter] He says the only people he ever killed were two women who died during operations that he performed as a certified doctor. But which name was this under that he was He says he is not guilty of killing anyone in the Pitel family. This guy [bleep] sucks. A month after selling a confession to 27 murders, he was hanged to death.
Finally, just after 10:00 in the morning, the trap drops. You will hear stories that it was botched and his neck didn’t break and he hung there twitching for 15 minutes. Perfect. I actually prefer that story. Mhm. The doctor said the neck broke and his heart just kept beating for a while. Either way, AJ Holmes was dead. Some consider him to be the first American serial killer. It just God, it’s so I think he’s just like the first. He’s such a pathological liar. Like you don’t know. Like I think I know it’s true. I think he definitely killed people, but like he’s so all over the place, dude.
Godzo. Mhm. They did exactly what he asked. They put him in a pine box, filled it with cement 10 ft down in an unmarked graved Holy Cross Cemetery outside of Philadelphia. Then they poured more cement on top. He asked for that. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz he didn’t want anybody to take his He didn’t want anybody to take his body. Oh, take his skeleton. Sell it to a [bleep] college. So, that’s the story. Now, this is the conspiracy podcast and so we’re going to go over some of the theories that may be attached to him to see if there’s some possibilities. You know what I’m talking about?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, if you heard our Jack the Ripper episodes, you know how many people have been named as Ripper? Yeah. Quite a few. Holmes is one of them. That’s crazy. Yeah. The man behind it is Jeff Mudget, a lawyer and Holmes great great great grandson. He says he inherited two diaries written by Holmes that put him in London and he wrote a book called Blood Stains. And in 2017, the History Channel made an eight-part eight-part history. Come on. Eight-part eight-part series called The American Ripper. His case, Holmes had medical training. Do you remember the Ripper? Yeah. He looks like some of the sketches.
Whatever. This a cash grab. [laughter] But there’s a timeline in 1888 and Mudget says handwriting analysis matches Holmes to the famous Jack the Ripper letters. I think everyone wrote kind of very whimsical back in the day. Like you should see you should see the these guys faces. It’s just a [bleep] cash. I mean like trust me if I was if I great great if my name was [bleep] Johnny Mudget I I trust me I’d be trying to sell some [bleep] to History Channel too. Like 100%. Yeah. Even the Chicago police were laughing about it back in 1895. Even they were laughing about it. All right.
Yeah, that one. Yeah. So, here’s the next theory. Did he escape the gallows? Because a lot of there’s a lot of theories that he actually got out. Two years after the hanging, a story starts going around. Holmes bribed the guards. Someone else hanged in his place. Then, Holmes slipped away to South America. I like this one. I mean, dude, this is [bleep] believable with this guy, dude. 100 I’m surprised he didn’t marry one of the guards who [laughter] this story, this story comes from Robert Latimer, and he was the former janitor at the Death Castle. And he was also one of the men Holmes confessed to murdering while he was still alive.
And also one of the men that Holmes never paid for his janitorial duties. That story wouldn’t die because uh it’s still in family lore more than a century later. So in the spring of 2017, Holm’s descendants got a court order and a crew went out to Holy Cross Cemetery to dig dig up his concrete corbs. 10 ft down, the shovels hit cement. They had to break through it. Inside the body was mostly gone, but his clothes were nearly perfect, preserved in the airless dark. And his mustache was even still there. Preserved. Yeah, that’s hilarious. One of the forensic anthropologists summed up the experience in two words.
It stank. Cool. Okay, thanks. They identified him by his teeth. It was HH Holmes and he was where he was bodied or buried. Bodied. Body where he was bodied. Yeah. All right. Next one, which brings us to the one mystery that’s still wide open. Somebody walked into that building with a can of gasoline while the investigation was still going. One suspect is Pat Quinnland, the castle’s another castle janitor. and Minnie’s trunks were in his room. Police grilled him hard and a plenty of people thought he knew more than he ever said or was it an insurance job or was it simply that the community wanted that place gone?
I think it I mean insurance job sounds like the most possible. He was like even if I’m in prison I’mma get mine. Yeah. [laughter] Okay. So then the next mystery about it is about if there were 200 victims. That number comes from a writer named Herbert Ashbury. In a 1940 book about Chicago’s underworld, he tossed off a line that some people thought Holmes killed as many as 200 people, but nobody actually said it. The real count is four. Well, that’s what they can like Ben and his three kids. Yeah. Yeah. Some historians will accept nine. Oh, okay. You know, with the other ones. So, the question is, is he really America’s first serial killer?
Not really. Let me define serial killer. I know, right? I mean, how many body How many people do you have to kill to be a serial killer? I think it’s three. Yeah. Three plus. But you also have to do it in the same way. No. No. It has to be in different circumstances. What do you mean? No. Mean you can’t kill three people all at once. No, no, but I’m saying you got to kill him the same way. No, no, it doesn’t have to. It doesn’t have to be the same way. That just seems to be a hallmark of it. Has to be different moments.
Meaning like I’ll kill Jorge and Sean right now. That’s just one murder or one instance, not two. So, it has to be multiple things. Anyways, um so why are you why are you killing us though? Well, we should be killing you. This is It makes sense. Physique Hique [laughter] V. So, but that to answer the question of was it really America’s first serial killer? Not even close. The Hart brothers were killing people on the frontier in the 1790s. The Bloody Benders ran a family in in Kansas in the 1870s where travelers checked in and never left. That’s really the real murder hotel. But for whatever reason, HH Holmes is known as the first because it’s like it’s just the most like insane like the story is just crazy.
Yeah. And it’s weird how much publicity like these cyber [bleep] gets like it makes it so like this almost like cult classic level of like recognition. And one of the last ones is called the curse. The papers back then really did call it the Holm’s curse. And look at the list. Not long after the hanging, the foreman of the jury that convicted him was electrocuted by a live wire on his own roof. That fall, the superintendent of the prison sat down at his desk, shot himself. The next year, one of the priests who stood beside Holmes on the gallows was found dead behind a church school with his skull fractured and his pockets turned out.
The coroner called it natural causes. Then natural with his skull cracked and his pockets turned out. Then then March 1914, almost 20 years after the fire, Pat Quinnland, the janitor who we mentioned earlier, the man who might have known more secrets, decided to swallow poison. I mean, so it’s the curse of HH Holmes. It’s not the curse. It’s just he drove everyone around him like into like insanity and they all [bleep] Yeah. So here’s what we know. He killed Ben Pitzell. Yes. He killed Ben’s three children and he kept the letters they wrote to their mother. He probably killed about nine people who trusted him and then he lied about every one of them right up to the rope.
He 100% killed more. He He definitely definitely killed more. So, what we don’t know is how many more there were. We don’t know who sent that telegram. We don’t know who burned the castle down. And we don’t know what Pat Quinnland saw that kept him awake for 20 years and then ended in poison because he couldn’t sleep. The trap doors and the gas chambers and the crematorium were real or were they not real? We don’t really know the answer. I don’t think it matters. I think it’s just like irrelevant. So, we don’t really know the answer. But that is really this the I want to say the shorter story of HH Holmes in the first American serial killer.
So the question is is a any validity in the killer is he surreal. Sorl the sorrel. Sorrel killer the first America surrel killer. This for you Nikki with K. Nikki with K. Sorrel. Yeah. This is what I brought up in the Discord. I know. I just wanted to get him to say it like clearly. [laughter] What was she talking about? Other. Other. Yeah, I think I’ve said other. The way you say other. Other. That sounds That sounds normal. Other. Are you saying other? No. Are you saying it with a D? Yeah, with a D. Other. Well, now I’m like pronouncing it. Yeah, we’ll bring it up in the conversation in the Patreon, you know.
So, the question though is that a any validity of Jack the Ripper? Mm-m. Zero. No. I feel like Jack the I feel like Jack the Ripper was very like calculated. Mhm. And this guy was like a little bit more chaotic. [bleep] all over. Jesus Christ. This guy had no plan whatsoever. Just just like everything I’ll just leave town. [bleep] it. Like he’s just all over the place. Chaos. Yeah. Jack Therber was very like he knew he was a piece of [bleep] but he knew what he was doing. He got away. And he also had an MO. It was always hookers. It was always like late night.
That’s my what I was thinking with serial killer. Well, because they typically have an MMO, but you don’t serial killer. You don’t need you don’t need to have an MO to be a serial killer. You can just kill people because you’re a psycho. Yeah. Like, okay. But there typically is there typically is a pattern like like it’s always the same like So, yeah. So, Jack had the pattern. Jack had a pattern for sure. This guy This guy had no idea like he would wake up, no idea what’s going on. He’ll burn you. He’ll put you in acid. He’ll the [bleep] trap door. Yeah, I’mma move to Michigan.
So, do you think that the death castle was real or do you think that was a a a uh sensationalized No, I think he probably I think he probably killed people there for sure. Yeah, I think so. Dark [bleep] way. For sure. First of all, no one builds a house that way. Yeah. No, you’re a psycho if you do. You’re just insane. Like that was the proof of his insanity was the the house. That’s right. Okay. and the fact that he had a jewelry store in [laughter] and having 17 wives and like have an affair with and then like give me your kids like get the [bleep] out of town.
Yeah. Okay. And then do you think he was a serial killer? Uh a surreal killer? I don’t know about that. But a serial killer. Yes. Yeah. But I mean like some people are saying he he confessed to 27. But some of them are not even no dead. I think he was a pathological liar. But I think he was definitely a serial killer. That’s obvious. He was definitely a serial killer. Just maybe not to the extent that he that he that he’s Why would he Why would he confess the truth? He wants that last payday. He wants the cash, baby. That you’re on death row. He doesn’t care.
You need it, dude. It’s like it’s for him. I think it was like his game in life. It was like, ooh. Like, how can I just weasel my [bleep] way into anything? So, he’s like, “Oh, sick. 5k. [bleep] yeah, baby. Still got the juice.” Like, you know, he didn’t give a [bleep] Like, he’s insane. [bleep] crazy. Yeah. Like, was he a good looking most handsome man in the universe? Like, I don’t understand. How did he bamboozle the Brad P of the 1800s? No, he’s got he had a mustache. Maybe he was like maybe it was like a more of like a Bert Reynolds or like a Who’s the other guy?
Um, he’s still alive. Um, he’s the one you always Tom Celic. Tom Celich. Like a Tom Celic with the stash. He was so handsome. I strived. I strived. Dude, I wish I looked like Tom Celic. Like what a [bleep] legend. That’s a picture that comes up. We’re going to put this in the Patreon. I can’t tell if that’s a good looking next to Leo. What is that? [laughter] Like why are they Oh, no. Word around the grapefruit is he’s going to do a movie. Oh, okay. About HHS on the grape vine. That’s why. Yeah. Well, if it was Leo, I can see it. Like, they’d be They’d be like, “Okay, good.
I’ll marry you. I’ll watch it. Watch it. Take the kids.” All right. Well, there you guys go. Uh, I hope you guys have a good Halloween. You know, stay safe out there. Definitely dress up. Don’t marry random [bleep] drug salesman. And don’t give your kids to random to rand. Yeah. Don’t do it. Please don’t do it. Yeah. But get out there, have some fun. Have fun. Be safe. Do you know what I mean? Watch your kids, please. God, I’m always terrified every time I go trick-or-treating because I’m like, don’t like leave my side. Yeah. But yeah, just have a good time, guys. Yeah. And join the Patreon.
Join the Patreon. We’re going to do a little after hours after this. Yeah. [laughter] And then uh after maybe we’ll uh even talk about what’s on our schedule coming up for the remainder of the year. Yeah. So, uh there you go, guys. Uh we’re not like true crime experts, so like this isn’t like this isn’t morbid. This isn’t like we’re not like pros at this. Yeah. But it’s Halloween, so it makes sense. Check us out. There you go. So, we’ll catch you next time on the Conspiracy Podcast. Nutty Night.
