So this is part two of Waco, and again, shout out to Loitis. I know, it’s hard sometimes. That transition was like, all right, we’re like really into that conversation there. Six minutes of no topic whatsoever. Last time we left you off with the situation in Waco. There was an initial confrontation with the warrant.

It’s debatable on who shot first. Somebody shot, ATF agents died, a couple hours of firefight, and then proceeded by 50 days of stalemate. And then we got to the point of 50 days of quote unquote negotiations. People were leaving, not leaving. Koresh wanted to do a manuscript and a video, I guess explaining his situation, or explaining he was trying to indoctrinate. Let’s be real, let’s call a spade a spade. He was trying to recruit. It was a recruitment. He wanted the public sentiment to feed into his campaign.

And history shows us how powerful somebody that’s dead and their message and their art is. I mean, like to Loitis’s point, look at most famous people, they become more famous after their death. There was something about that specifically with artists. You see, after their death it became far more famous. Like if you look at, for example, Gaudi, Gaudi was the most famous man in Spain, but he literally died as a bum and he got hit by one of the trams.

So when Gaudi got hit by one of the little trams they had, he looked like a literal bum. So they put him in the bum hospital. And he died in that hospital and they’re like, oh shit, it was Gaudi. It’s that guy. And then now it’s like half of Spain is dedicated to Gaudi. It’s like he did a bunch of amazing stuff, don’t get me wrong. I think that’s what Koresh wanted. He wanted to be a martyr. He wanted to have this.

So where we left you was April 18th, and that was when Janet Reno approved the plan. And again, towards the end of the last episode, we went over that the plan was not supposed to be a D-Day incursion. It wasn’t supposed to be a hundred soldiers storming the compound. But here’s what the plan was supposed to be, which was that it was supposed to be stages of gas shot in over a 24-hour period.

So it gets to the point where they’re like, I literally can’t breathe, I have to leave to survive. That’s right. So the idea would be, you know, you shoot in the middle nonstop. At approximately 5:55 a.m., the Department of Justice report states, two combat engineering vehicles moved into position and began delivering tear gas. Negotiators delivered scripted announcements emphasizing, this is not an assault, we’re not here to kill you, we’re launching tear gas, if you want to exit, please exit.

And this is the strange part, is that they just kept saying it was not an assault over the loudspeakers, then they were assaulting. This is not an assault. These bullets are not an assault, trust me. It’s very weird. So they delivered those announcements on the PA and over the phone and they instructed occupants to leave. The report states Davidians began firing within minutes and continued throughout. It also states in the report that the FBI did not fire any shots. That’s hard to believe. I don’t believe that. I feel that’s bullshit.

Around 8:08 a.m., a detail that became available years later, the special counsel report concluded that an HRT agent fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds at a concrete structure about 75 feet from the actual living quarters. Pyrotechnic tear gas. I’m assuming that it’s an explosion. It’s like a flashbang. And so the report came out saying that they fired it into a construction pit about 75 feet away from the main living quarters. Why would they do that? Like let’s tear gas 75 feet away. Some sort of a warning. I don’t know.

But this is at 8 a.m. This is three hours after they were already lighting him up. And the reason I’m bringing this up is because a fire starts. See, this is why I think this is covering their ass. This is yes, we didn’t even fire it, actually, we shot it the other direction. It was away from them. I don’t know how the fire started. But the same report also concludes that years later, pyrotechnics were not evidence of any sort of criminal conspiracy, but it did materially contribute to the perception that something was being concealed.

Meaning that in the same report it said it didn’t start the fire, but then they’re like, well, we fired it. It’s a little confusing because we’re like 30 years later, you know, and reports are coming out, but not at the time. Of course. But years later. Shortly after noon a fire erupted. It described in the report three separate origin points of the fire and concludes that the fire was intentionally set by those inside. That’s no way. Let’s burn ourselves. Yeah, bros, 51 days, let’s light us up. That’s bullshit.

The special counsel report likewise concludes government agents did not start or materially contribute to the fire, citing evidence of accelerant and multiple ignition points, and firing into the compound. It says that they did not start the fire. See, this is why, at this point I was like, yeah. Before this I’m like, okay, I can see the government’s viewpoint, the ATF’s not, you know. Now I’m like, okay you guys are, this is bullshit. They were throwing Molotov cocktails inside of the compound at their own people, but that didn’t start anything. A Molotov cocktail would never start a fire.

So a fire started and this fire turned into a blaze and then the blaze turned into an actual eruption of flame. And you can see the videos. So we talked about how big the compound is, multiple buildings, etc. Just imagine. Go look at the video. It’s full scale flame. It’s an inferno. It’s like a blaze of just burning. And then there are witnesses and people just watching. Even the snipers, even the news crews, they were watching it and the whole time they were like, okay, they’re going to come out because it’s on fire. I mean, that’s the first thing I’m doing.

You’re waiting for like this crowd of people to run out. That’s right. Unfortunately, they didn’t come out. That’s fucked. Maybe it was all the tear gas and they’re all discombobulated. And apparently they were huddled into a majority of one space. There’s probably a lot of smoke and you don’t know where to go. You’re so disoriented. Now, a couple people did come out. But like three or four. And so at this point there’s 80 people still in there. Jesus.

So, again, because this is an audio podcast, it’s hard to describe. It’s like a volcano. It literally just looked like a volcano and then it just burned and it burned and burned and the whole time people were like, you know, people are just going to come out. All right, at least this is the end of this. But again, nobody came out. And so the aftermath of it and the forensics of it is horrifying. Texas Rangers, oh, they’re on the scene finally. What the fuck. They were part of cleanup. And they recovered 75 bodies. Jesus Christ.

The medical examiner concluded 75 people died inside because of fire, because of either burning to death, smoke, or gunshots. Oh, so some were already dead. So they were burying homies. But the ATF’s like, we didn’t fire one shot. Not one shot fired. But for example, Koresh, it was unknown whether he died from the fire or the gunshot he had gotten weeks earlier. 25 children that were under 15 died. God damn it. That’s fucked.

But the most probable thing, going back to Koresh, is that he died with the fire. Because does it make sense that people would stay there if they didn’t have this guy manipulating them? But I’m the lamb. I am the lamb. I mean that’s basically the result of it all. And it looked like, I saw an interview by one of the snipers who was walking around and he said it looked like the apocalypse, walking on dead bodies and everything was burnt to a crisp. Choice of words.

But the immediate legal record did not solve Waco, it reframed it. The DOJ’s aftermath chapter describes a weeks-long crime scene search and arson investigation, and it finally was completed in July of 1993. Extensive ballistic and inventory findings, including the hundreds of firearms that we talked about. Independent arson investigation concluded the fire was deliberately set from within. I don’t believe it. That’s bullshit. I don’t believe that either. Why would they just, is it just mass suicide? No, there’s no reason.

Like, yes, there is a point where some people will be that devout, a zealot. You’re such a zealot that you’re willing to die. But 90 people, most of them, and there’s 40 kids under 15. You’re not going to burn your kids for this cause. And the kids not going to willingly be burned. No. And I think at this point what happened is by the time the fire started it was too late for anyone to get out.

Imagine, you’re trapped in a fire, you’re in a currently safe space, you’re freaking the fuck out, so you’re huddled up with your kids or whatever, the exit is engulfed in flames, you’re not going to run through that, and at that point you’re fucked. And everybody you’ve been listening to are just like, stay here, everything’s going to be fine, calm down, the fire is going to subside. They’re going to get a fire squad here, they’re going to put the water, they’re going to put it out. And then it’s just like too late. That sucks.

So then the question became at the end, were they coerced to stay there? Were they, did they believe in it so much that they were willing to sacrifice their lives? I think they were trapped. I think there was just no plausible escape, because of the setup. It was just a blaze. It was basically an accident they couldn’t get out of and it’s too late. Their exits are engulfed in flames. But there’s the thing, would you run through a raging fire with the potential to make it? Dude, I don’t know if I could do that.

But then the question becomes, who’s liable for the death of all these people? Well, in my opinion, it’s that pyrotechnic. Well, obviously the lamb. You think David Koresh? Well, David Koresh, he’s the root of it all, for sure. So it is inevitably on him, for sure. But the government is definitely liable. Oh, for sure. But definitely the ATF for sure, because even this dimension of, well, we did have a pyrotechnic tear gas module, but we didn’t use it. It was like 75 feet. It was clearly them. They set the fire. They lit the milk on fire.

Kind of going back to what you said, I think it was the first episode when we started off, and this is a record from the DOJ, that it’s definitely a cover up, PR. They’re trying to cover their ass of how they handled it. How it went down. Because realistically, when has the DOJ ever been like, yeah, we fucked up? They’ve never done that ever. Oh, we made a little oopsie. I think they did. You remember the Japanese internment camps? I think they did, but like in 2010. Well, maybe they wanted to make sure everybody was not alive anymore.

So, federal prosecutions of surviving Davidians led to mixed verdicts. Records show convictions and sentencing disputes, including litigation over the machine gun enhancements, meaning why were they there in the first place. That’s why they were there. Over the longer arc, Congress revisited Waco repeatedly. The House report on federal law enforcement agencies criticized the ATF affidavit supporting the warrants as containing significant errors and misstatements, even if probable cause existed, and faulted aspects of decision making and negotiation posture.

Cool. So they’re literally admitting that they were doing this on a mistake. But no one takes responsibility. It’s not our fault, but we shouldn’t have been there in the first place. A later House report examining new evidence quote unquote aligned with special counsel and court conclusions that the government did not cause the fire or direct gunfire on April 19th. But they acknowledge pyrotechnic round misunderstandings. Misunderstandings. Well, see, this is the thing I despise about the government, is that they’ll do all these special committees and even when they find shit that’s wrong, no one’s held accountable.

It’s because it’s like a vagary of an entity. There’s no one person. Meaning like our podcast gets sued, it’s the LLC. Limited liability. I am not responsible for the entity. You take what happened with Covid and then years after the fact they’re like, well yeah, we kind of made this all up and it was all a sham, and the social distancing and masks, it was all like a joke, and none of it actually helped at all. And all your lives were ruined and you lost your jobs, and then it’s like, okay, but who’s accountable? Well, nobody.

They’re like, yeah, we fucked up. But there’s no person who takes the blame. Everything is just like, yeah, sorry. It’s almost like your kid fucks up and they’re like, sorry. And you’re like, fine, okay. But it’s on your life scale where it’s like, oh cool, well I lost my job and I lost my house because of the situation. They’re like, well, sucks to be you. Fauci’s rich as balls. And it’s like, whatever. And they’re like, what about me? What the fuck?

Afterwards, 12 of the survivors, the Davidians that survived, were put on trial. For murder. For murder of what? Four people. Well, how could 12 people murder four people? Four ATF agents. No, but how could 12 people murder four people? Somebody did. How can you try them all? Well, where’s the evidence? Where’s the evidence that the bullets came from the guns that they supposedly shot? Where’s the murder weapon? You can get put on trial, but how are they going to prove that?

So here, they were charged with many things. It wasn’t just murder. But they were charged with murder of four, aiding and abetting murder, conspiracy. Oh, each person was charged with the murder of all. You’re all being charged with four counts of murder. They were charged for conspiracy of murder. And then firearms violations, including manipulation of automatic weapons. Well, I don’t get the conspiracy of murder one because to conspire means premeditated. So you premeditatedly knew that ATF would come. There was a tip that they were coming. Okay, this is so loosey goosey. This is ridiculous.

What happened with this trial? Nobody in the Waco incident was convicted of murder. Okay, what were they convicted of though? Nobody. This seems like a setup. So like all these people died. Four ATF agents, 70 humans died, nobody’s been convicted. On both sides. They weren’t even arrested from the government side. Nobody was arrested. Nobody was charged. No one was fired. Not even, like, they got a raise, promoted. There were a couple that got firearm offenses and they received the max sentencing, which is what? 40 years. 40 years, dude. Wow.

Can you imagine us being like a guy and you’re like, oh man, I believe the lamb, I’m part of the commune. About five or six years later, those 40-year sentences were reduced to about 10 through appeals. Could you imagine serving even just 10 years when you didn’t even fire the gun? You were just like, I believed. I just believed in this guy, and now you’re 10 years in prison. I mean, I don’t know what to say, you believed in the wrong guy. They fucked up. But also, it wasn’t just believe in your guy. It was like, how you going to give up your children to this guy? You know what, you deserve the prison time, fuck you.

No, take my kid, take my wife. And because you did, 70 people died, including children, in a fire, like the worst way possible. Literally the worst way possible. Of all the things, I don’t want to go that way. I’d rather freeze to death than burn to death. I’d rather drown. Much rather drown for sure. But I can just imagine like Eric being like, hey man, why do you let me just fuck your wife, and, you know, I’m the lamb, you understand? Like you don’t get to have sex with your wife, I do. But the wildest part is that I talked you into it. Like you’re like, no, trust me, I’m the lamb.

So it’s hilarious. This example is hilarious because it’s so absurd at the beginning, but you really talked him into it with like a slow burn and I’m like, I don’t know. And you’re like, do you want the seven seals or not? That’s right. And I’m like, fuck, I mean I kind of want the seals. And then it’s like, you know, we’re both the dads. There are kids. We’re both the fathers. There are kids. I’m like, no, but it’s my daughter. No, it’s my daughter. I am the lamb. Trust me.

Now I can get behind the whole community living. I can get behind that. I think the little small communities are cool. You don’t want to be part of the whole, you want to go off grid. Apparently they had no phones, no television, no anything. That, no television, I know, but I’m just saying. You could kind of understand the appeal. It’s like back to earth, you know, like you’re coming back. But once you’re there and then you’re like, I’m going to have to sleep with them, that’s where I’m like, yeah, I’m good. That’s where you start rethinking.

Hey, I believe in God, man, I very much believe in this, but your interpretation’s a little different than mine, and I got a really good job at Nvidia, I got to go. I’m sorry, it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I know we’re joking about this, but I don’t know what to say. I mean it’s strange to us. The thing is, the people that were there, there has to be some semblance of responsibility for allowing yourself to be in the situation, right? You’re allowing this guy, and you’re believing that this guy has the rights to sleep with your wife and your kids because he’s some sort of prophet or whatever.

Everyone there has to be a line. And that just doesn’t mean that’s the line to me. It’s no longer spiritual. No, it’s physical. It’s physical, right? He’s trying to get his. Oh, God wants me to sleep with your wife. Like, no, he doesn’t. He doesn’t want you to do that. When has he ever said that? Isn’t adultery condemned in the Bible? Like, how are they making this go? It doesn’t make any sense. Like adultery is like a crime. Didn’t they used to stone people for this shit?

Okay, and then before we get into the next segment, I do want to go on the other side, showing up at your door in America. No knocking. No warrant served. Just full. Well, let’s just take the other side. Let’s say they didn’t. No warrant served, weapons. But here’s the thing, but they also have ATF on their chest. You’re not talking about like just random. Like you showing up at my house, my ring doorbell, and I’m like, who’s this masked motherfucker at my door? Trust me, open the door.

So you’re saying you think it was justified from the ATF side? Well, if they got shot upon first. No, but say they didn’t. The Davidians say they were shot upon, without being served the warrant. So they were protecting their home per the Fourth Amendment, of standing your ground. Okay, fine. But I don’t believe them. Okay, that’s what I was getting. You don’t believe them? I’m with Jorge. I don’t believe that the ATF just came in there shooting. They knew there were kids there. They knew there were women and children. I don’t think they came in there shooting.

Also, on the flip side, I don’t agree that the ATF should have showed up like that, especially it came out later that some of the information was not accurate and maybe some of these warrants weren’t above board. But I’ll give you a classic example of how I deal with things differently and it always works out nicely. It’s like you see these videos of these people who are so uncooperative and combative and then it ends up shitty. Dude, you know how many tickets I’ve gotten out of just because I’m hyper cooperative.

I’ve been pulled over multiple times. One time in particular, which I thought was really funny, I get pulled over, I instantly roll down all my windows. All of them. Because I’m like, I don’t want them thinking I’m hiding something. And then I’m literally sitting there with my ID and my registration, all my stuff, just waiting. So this one time I didn’t roll down all my windows. I just rolled down mine but I didn’t roll down my other ones, I wasn’t thinking. The cop comes and then another cop comes behind him. This one had the Nissan with the tint windows.

So he comes up and I give him my stuff and I’m like, here you go, sir. And he’s like, you know why I pulled you over? I’m like, yes, I was going 42 and I thought that was the 40 speed limit, but it switches over to 30. So I was speeding because I know it switches and I forgot about it. He’s like, that’s exactly right. That’s exactly what happened. And then he comes back and the other cop’s looking. At this time I went and got food and I had buckled in the food in the back seat. So the food’s buckled in.

So he comes back and he gives me my stuff. He’s like, it’s fine, man, you guys can just go, it’s no big deal, you were really cooperative, I’m not gonna give you a ticket. And I’m like, you guys? And he looks in and he goes, oh shit, that’s your food, just go. I picked this up, I was like, okay sir, thank you. He literally thought it was like another person. It’s like your spicy chicken sandwich. You and your Chick-fil-A girlfriend. But like I was like, yes, I know I’m not here to fight you, I was doing something wrong, it’s okay, give me a ticket, I don’t give a fuck.

Granted though, that’s not 30 agents with weapons. Granted though, I don’t have 400 firearms in a commune in Texas. But my point is, okay, if you’re doing something, why be combative? I don’t believe the ATF shot first. I do believe the ATF burned the house down. For sure, 100%. Even if it was accidental, I don’t think they did it on purpose, I think it was an accident for sure. They just put way too many flashbangs and tear gas. Why pyrotechnic? Do you have like a non-pyrotechnic? Why is it got to be the basic one, just the gas only, low-level, no frill one? Why is it got to be pyro?

But so if that’s the case, then 70 people died. You can’t just be like, ah, it’s just part of the job. Somebody needs to be more than reprimanded. They need to be held accountable. But they never do it. Has anybody in the US government ever got arrested, charged? Nothing. No one’s accountable for anything. They do this shit all the time. Homies ordering drone strikes and no one’s accountable. I got to join the government, dude. Literally just do whatever the fuck you want, get paid, take bribes. We got to start an NGO. We got to start a daycare. Why are we doing podcasting? We’re stupid.

Several prominent conspiracy theories emerged from the 1993 Waco siege, often alleging government overreach or cover-ups, though official investigations have largely debunked them. These include claims that federal agents intentionally started the fire, fabricated motives for the raid, and engaged in broader suppression of dissent. While evidence leans toward shared responsibility between the Branch Davidians and the federal missteps. See, that’s what I’m on board, shared responsibility. They all fucked up. Everyone fucked up. The theories persist among anti-government groups highlighting ongoing debates about authority and accountability.

Now again, we had talked about before, which is before it was Ruby Ridge. So tensions were high in regard to the ATF. Their PR was, they were fucked up, they were on the back swing and they just kept fucking up even more. All right. So here are a couple of the conspiracies related to Waco. One, the government initiated the fire. It seems likely that theories claiming the FBI or ATF deliberately started the fire because they were tired of the standoff. You know what, dude, that makes a lot of sense, honestly, they’re like, I’m sick of this shit.

It said that they deliberately started the fire using flammable tear gas, pyrotechnic rounds, or even flamethrowers that were on the tanks. In an effort to just squash it. I’ve never seen a tank with a flamethrower. So this is the theory, they did do that, but simply because they were like, I’m done. It’s 51 days, I’m done. I think that they thought they’re going to run out when they see this fire, everybody’s going to run out and then we can catch them. They’re like, what’s the quick way to get them out? Just burn them out. Smoke them out. Literally smoke them out.

If you believe in that theory, then that means the government killed 70 people on accident. Well, not on accident, on negligence, on the phone, on the basis that they wouldn’t escape. Like, as a result, collateral damage. They called their bluff. Like, oh, they’re going to run out, and then that’s why everyone’s like, they’re not running, why aren’t they running out? Oh fuck. Turn the TV off, turn the camera off. That’s illegal.

So the next one was, in a lot of the press conferences that were done by the FBI, they said that David Koresh promised to leave and to exit, but then broke his promise. And they said he did it five times over the course of the 51 days. Well, that makes sense. Leading them to believe, like to string it out. Well, I believe he was stringing it out for sure, 100%. But the audio recordings were deleted of those. Ooh. So there’s no evidence that he ever said, we’re leaving. Spicy meatball. Ah, convenience. What that means, just corrupted. Sorry, we got another 350 hours, but not those. Not the eight minutes of him being like, I’m out.

So what that implies is that it was a cover up, because he never actually said we’re leaving. They just had poor negotiation tactics. I mean, that sounds legit, that they were just terrible negotiators. You think about it too, in the grand scheme of the federal government, the ATF seems like they’re the C team. They’re low on the totem pole. It’s like you don’t make the cut with the other agencies. So you’re like, yeah, ATF, sure, I can get that job.

Another one was about the whole motive in itself to raid them in the first place, because originally, supposedly it was a drug lab. Oh, really? I don’t think that doesn’t seem plausible. So they say that that was part of the selling point of raiding them in the first place, that it was drugs and weapons. Well, the ATF is alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. It’s not drugs. DEA is drug enforcement, right? Yeah. True. But supposedly the ATF ignored the drug dealings and fabricated the drug lab allegations in order to justify such a large amount of military presence. Okay, that makes sense, I can get behind that.

I think that the guy that they had in there, Rodriguez, he had the drugs. Go figure. Rodriguez is like, what are you trying to say? Rodriguez is like, if you take the cocoa leaves, trust me. So they had their guy in there and then he, you know, they’re getting the intel over however long. So then they know they have all these weapons in there, they’re probably modified to some degree, a couple of them. And when they got the tip that they knew that they were coming, they just rushed. They were like, fuck it, let’s rush the house and kind of take care of this fast with the presence. But then it turned against them.

Well, maybe like, if you’re a cop and you’re trying to get the warrant, you’re piling on anything. It’s possible there’s drugs there, I don’t know. But also again, back to the show of force, how many was it, 30 of them that showed up? At least. It’s all based on video. I would recommend you go watch the video, and it looks like a Pearl Harbor thing. No, but it’s a tactic, that show of force. Usually we’ll get somebody to just back down and be like, I can’t win. But not this time.

All right, the next one is who fired first, and we talked about it quite a bit. I think it was probably one of the zealots, because that’s the biggest thing, right? Do you serve the warrant? I think the biggest thing is the fire. Oh, for sure. But the catalyst, the impetus of the thing, I think it was one of those zealot dudes who was like, fuck that, you ain’t going to take me, I got my rights. Because they knew they were coming. I think they planned that one. They knew they were coming. They’re like, they’re not coming in here.

And he was probably like, you’re protected, the Constitution’s protecting you, this is legal, it’s 100% legal to shoot these. Not to mention God, don’t forget the lamb. Everything’s legal under the lamb. The lamb is the law, baby. He probably used that to convince them, look, nothing’s going to happen to us. You got the lamb on your side. God’s on your side. I mean look at North Korea for example. Kim Jong-un is like the law. So it’s like, fuck everybody else. There’s no outside perspective. It’s only what you’re told. It’s like, I’m the supreme leader, do as I say. Make nukes, trust me, it’s okay, I don’t give a fuck what those other people say. You got no internet, no outside perspectives.

The other one, some theories lean toward political motivations, alleging the four killed ATF agents worked for Bill Clinton. I mean, what’s the connect? Add to the Clinton body count. But why were they the ones to die out of 30, dude? Everybody worked for Clinton. At all times, every decade somebody worked for him. I’m saying when you’re the president, everyone works for you. Was Clinton the president this time? He was. He became president in 93. I just think that’s such a lazy fringe. It’s super fringe because it’s also like, okay, they work for him, but then they got killed by Davidians. It’s too loose. Unless they were like his servants, and they happen to become ATF agents right afterwards.

So then I put together, they’re not conspiracy theories, but they’re strange coincidences. And you know how we do. We went over it a little bit, but McVeigh was there. Okay, that’s a strange one. Super sketch. But maybe he was motivated by it. Like this was his motivation. The fact that the bombing took place on the anniversary, right? So that’s the next coincidence, which is the Oklahoma City bombing was April 19th, 1995, which is the same day of the fire. That’s not a coincidence. No, that was planned. Yeah. Janet Reno, who was the attorney general, she authorized the final strike. She also later managed the OKC response.